• to mask or not to mask, again

    From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Warpslide on Wed Mar 31 08:29:00 2021
    Hello Warpslide!

    ** On Wednesday 31.03.21 - 08:28, Warpslide wrote to Paradigms Shifting:

    The people we should be concerned about are those who flagrantly disregard our new normal because it conflicts with their freedom or they have a "medical condition".

    Are you assuming that all claims citing conflict of freedom or
    the "medical condition" (your quotes, not mine) are fakery?


    I witnessed a woman screaming at the top of her lungs because she wasn't allowed in a grocery store without a mask. She was being quite loud and obnoxious about it, making quite a scene, all the while holding up the (quite long) line behind her. At one point while carrying on she got almost nose -to-nose with the manager while screaming at him. So much for 6ft apart.

    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as
    a patron to conduct business.

    https://youtu.be/0knrnCBurQ8

    It is too bad she was screaming and not conducting the
    "distancing" part though; the biz owner could probably ask her
    to leave on those grounds.

    I operate a small retail space too. As the video mentions, a
    licensed biz has no right to NOT allow the public into the space
    for "patrons", mask or no mask. So.. it someone entered for the
    sole purposes to strut their naked face and not seem to buy
    anything (or attempt to use my private bathroom) ..then I can
    ask that person to leave - if not, I need to call the police I
    guess. But I would at least try to get a picture of the person
    so that they can be identified later if they leave befor the
    police arrive.

    But it is the biz's obligation to "convey" that masks are
    required. Now.. I personally don't have any signs that have
    "must have masks upon entry..", but I wear a mask myself - and
    that is how I "convey" the matter.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Warpslide@21:3/110 to Ogg on Wed Mar 31 10:59:53 2021
    *** Quoting Ogg from a message to Warpslide ***

    our new normal because it conflicts with their freedom or they have a "medical condition".

    Are you assuming that all claims citing conflict of freedom or the "medical condition" (your quotes, not mine) are fakery?

    Not at all, there are people who genuinely can't wear a mask (people who have COPD come to mine) - But in those cases places like Fortinos require that you wear a face shield instead. This lady wouldn't have any of it, she wanted
    to walk into the store without either.

    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as a
    patron to conduct business.

    Yup, and that's exactly what they did. After she got near nose-to-nose with the manager (he was wearing a mask, she wasn't) was near the end of the encounter. After that she left, again screaming at the top of her lungs,
    that she has a "medical condition" and that "you'll be hearing from lawyers".

    It's hard to have empathy for a person who acts in such a way.

    But it is the biz's obligation to "convey" that masks are required. Now.. I personally don't have any signs that have "must have masks
    upon entry..", but Iwear a mask myself - and that is how I "convey"
    the matter.

    The City of Hamilton has bylaws in place saying that you have to display this sign and that sign, in addition to any other restrictions that the business would like to impose. "Wear a Mask", "Do you have any of these symptoms", "Max occupancy", etc..

    There is one Pet Valu close to my house that has so many signs on the door that you can't see in to know how many people are in the store.

    Jay

    ... I'm not broke, I'm just badly bent.

    --- Telegard v3.09.g2-sp4/mL
    * Origin: Northern Realms | 289-424-5180 | bbs.nrbbs.net (21:3/110)
  • From Paradigms Shifting@21:1/101 to Ogg on Thu Apr 1 14:32:27 2021
    On 31 Mar 2021 at 09:29a, Ogg pondered and said...

    Hello Warpslide!

    ** On Wednesday 31.03.21 - 08:28, Warpslide wrote to Paradigms Shifting:

    The people we should be concerned about are those who flagrantly disre our new normal because it conflicts with their freedom or they have a "medical condition".

    Are you assuming that all claims citing conflict of freedom or
    the "medical condition" (your quotes, not mine) are fakery?


    I witnessed a woman screaming at the top of her lungs because she wasn allowed in a grocery store without a mask. She was being quite loud a obnoxious about it, making quite a scene, all the while holding up the (quite long) line behind her. At one point while carrying on she got almost nose -to-nose with the manager while screaming at him. So much 6ft apart.

    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as
    a patron to conduct business.

    https://youtu.be/0knrnCBurQ8

    I completely agree. There are medical discrimination laws in place, and with places such as Costco completely disregarding this fact, I can imagine that after awhile there is going to be a lot of class action suits against them.

    There are also laws in place protecting ideological, religious, etc freedoms
    as well. So on the other side of the coin, you can't tell a Muslim woman
    she can't wear a burka. Just as an example.

    It is also against OSHA guidelines to force employees to wear a mask all day. Of course OSHA isn't enforcing this at the moment, in fact they are ignoring it.

    The law is dead as far as I'm concerned and the Constitution has become
    toilet paper. The Constitution was originally designed to restrict
    government, but now there is no way to discern where corporations begin and government ends, because they are so deeply in each others pockets.

    This country, has become a technocratic dictatorship waging war (mostly psychological) on the people. So as far as I'm concerned:

    RIP USA
    1776 - 2020

    The USA has been on a downward spiral for many decades, but in 2020 the
    journey to the bottom concluded.

    We live in Idiocracy, which resides somewhere between 1984 and Brave New
    World. No conspiracy rabbit holes required, those with eyes to see need
    only to look around to see the obvious.

    So if you think its nuts now, fasten your seat belt! You ain't seen nothin' yet!

    .:- Paradigms Shifting -:.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Warpslide on Wed Mar 31 21:38:00 2021
    Hello Warpslide!

    ** On Wednesday 31.03.21 - 11:59, Warpslide wrote to Ogg:

    Are you assuming that all claims citing conflict of freedom or the
    "medical condition" (your quotes, not mine) are fakery?

    Not at all, there are people who genuinely can't wear a mask (people who have COPD come to mine) ...

    Oh, sorry. I assumed that since you put "medical condition"
    quotes you were being suspicious of those claims people can
    make.

    But note, that the provincial ordinace does not preclude anyone
    from not wearing any face covering if they choose. And.. the biz
    owner cannot demand any proof of medical condition claims.

    - But in those cases places like Fortinos require that you
    wear a face shield instead. This lady wouldn't have any of
    it, she wanted to walk into the store without either.

    Yes.. there is what is called a requirement (it's effectively
    just an expectation only) to wear masks upon entering
    businesses, but the person can cite an exemption.

    The gov't wants businesses to convey mask rules, but it sounds
    like constitutional rights trump such expectations.

    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as a
    patron to conduct business.

    Yup, and that's exactly what they did. After she got near
    nose-to-nose with the manager (he was wearing a mask, she
    wasn't) was near the end of the encounter. After that she
    left, again screaming at the top of her lungs, that she has
    a "medical condition" and that "you'll be hearing from
    lawyers".

    Too bad she lost her cool. She may get a constitutional lawyer
    involved (which will not cost her a thing) but her shouting and
    close proximity with someone during the argument in the store
    may not be in her favour.

    It's hard to have empathy for a person who acts in such a way.

    I was in a check-out queue at my local NoFrills a few weeks ago
    with a cart and a couple of young dudes who were behind me, did
    not have a cart and seemed to come a bit close. I ignored it and
    figured as long as my back is to them, it didn't matter. Usually
    everyone would have a cart in front of them that acted as a
    suitable spacing guideline from person to person. Well.. the
    person in front of me seemed a bit concerned that the dudes were
    too close behind my back, and ask them to move back. (At this
    point I was probably a visible minority of the "vulnerable
    senior" category, I guess.) The woman in front of me seemed
    much younger than me too. A petty argument ensued between the
    person in front of me and the dudes behind me about the risks
    and non-risks of covid. I was probably getting all the benefit
    of the spit particles that both sides were shouting out.
    Eventually, a manager/stock boy noticed the raised voices, came
    over and tried to tell the dudes to calm down.

    I just rolled my eyes. I looked at the woman ahead of me
    mouthed "It's ok". I sent the same message to the people behind
    me.

    ..I personally don't have any signs that have "must have
    masks upon entry..", but Iwear a mask myself - and that
    is how I "convey" the matter.

    The City of Hamilton has bylaws in place saying that you
    have to display this sign and that sign, in addition to any
    other restrictions that the business would like to impose.
    "Wear a Mask", "Do you have any of these symptoms", "Max
    occupancy", etc..

    I will post any signage that I *must* have IF it is provided for
    me. I will not expend resources and time to print and plaster
    shit all over my windows.

    There is one Pet Valu close to my house that has so many
    signs on the door that you can't see in to know how many
    people are in the store.

    The little deli next door to me had this in Sep 2020:

    https://photos.kolico.ca/tmp/IMG_20200920_110455.jpg

    And this is the same door about 5 months later:

    https://photos.kolico.ca/tmp/IMG_20210213_164625.jpg

    I'm NOT going to muck up my glass like that.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Ogg on Wed Mar 31 20:41:58 2021
    On 31 Mar 2021, Ogg said the following...
    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as
    a patron to conduct business.

    And yet, "No shoes, no shirt, no service."

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Warpslide on Thu Apr 1 01:49:19 2021
    There is one Pet Valu close to my house that has so many signs on the
    door that you can't see in to know how many people are in the store.

    After working at libraries for many years, I grew to enjoy saying, "signs are for ignoring". Because _everyone_ misses signs, because there are _so_ many, because people want to get other people to do various things. Which, of
    course, is not the way to actually get people to do various things.

    But signs are _super_ useful _when people are looking for them_.

    These two aspects are often in conflict.

    E.g., we had self-checkouts, and we _knew_ there were some common stumbling blocks. So, of course, we put up a sign.

    So eventually I wound up helping a woman with the self-checkout, and after explaining the workaround for the difficulty she was experiencing, she said something along the lines of, "you should put up a sign about that".

    At which point I picked up the sign and said, "like this one?".

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Jeff on Wed Mar 31 22:59:00 2021
    Hello Jeff!

    ** On Wednesday 31.03.21 - 21:41, Jeff wrote to Ogg:

    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as
    a patron to conduct business.

    And yet, "No shoes, no shirt, no service."

    Good observation. You would think that the biz owner can't
    refuse service to people under those grounds either. But I
    think there are some laws that govern decency that a biz owner
    can fall back on.

    I had a fellow enter my store reeking of something a bit too
    rotten for many other people's liking, and it wasn't cannabis. I
    had to kindly encourage the person to leave.


    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Paradigms Shifting on Wed Mar 31 23:39:00 2021
    Hello Paradigms Shifting!

    ** On Thursday 01.04.21 - 15:32, Paradigms Shifting wrote to Ogg:

    We live in Idiocracy, which resides somewhere between 1984
    and Brave New World. No conspiracy rabbit holes required,
    those with eyes to see need only to look around to see the
    obvious.

    This is an interesting book, from over 10 years ago!

    Virus Mania: How the Medical Industry Continually Invents
    Epidemics, Making Billion-Dollar Profits at Our Expense |
    Paperback
    Torsten Engelbrecht | Claus Koehnlein | Etienne de Harven MD
    Trafford Publishing | Trafford Pub
    Health & Fitness / Diseases / Business & Economics / Commerce
    Published Sep 19, 2007
    $24.00 US list price

    You can read a description here:

    https://tinyurl.com/yfyc6ffk

    There is an updated reprint edition with the subtitle "Virus
    Mania: Corona/COVID-19, Measles, Swine Flu, Cervical Cancer,
    Avian Flu, SARS, BSE, Hepatitis C, AIDS, Polio. How the Medical
    Industry Continually Invents Epidemics, Making Billion-Dollar
    Profits At Our Expense"

    So if you think its nuts now, fasten your seat belt! You
    ain't seen nothin' yet!

    On one side of the coin I see economic experts predicting a
    major crash. But just tonight on the evening news was a
    comparison that our economy is mirroring the roaring 20s that
    followed the Spanish Flu epidemic.

    I don't know what to think or believe anymore. Maybe that is the
    goal of the media and the elite - and thus keep the public under
    control by fear and confusion.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Ogg on Thu Apr 1 09:27:50 2021
    On 31 Mar 2021, Ogg said the following...
    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as
    a patron to conduct business.

    And yet, "No shoes, no shirt, no service."

    Good observation. You would think that the biz owner can't
    refuse service to people under those grounds either. But I
    think there are some laws that govern decency that a biz owner
    can fall back on.

    Either decency or hygiene. I would think that wearing/not wearing a mask
    would fall under hygiene.

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Paradigms Shifting on Tue Apr 6 08:11:24 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Paradigms Shifting said the following...

    On 01 Apr 2021 at 10:27a, Jeff pondered and said...

    On 31 Mar 2021, Ogg said the following...
    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was the
    a patron to conduct business.

    And yet, "No shoes, no shirt, no service."

    Good observation. You would think that the biz owner can't refuse service to people under those grounds either. But I think there are some laws that govern decency that a biz owner can fall back on.

    Either decency or hygiene. I would think that wearing/not wearing a m would fall under hygiene.

    Not necessarily. The science has been clear for years that not only are masks completely ineffective in preventing the spread of disease, but
    also that long term mask usage can be harmful in a variety of ways. It
    is not about safety, it is about control.

    Oh, really? Has anyone told ER staff about this?

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Paradigms Shifting on Tue Apr 6 08:18:15 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Paradigms Shifting said the following...
    So this is not as straight forward as "having no shoes and no shirt in
    the store is bad hygiene". And if we're being honest, if the main stream media started telling everyone that shoes and shirts were dangerous, they'd toss all common sense out the window, forget everything they ever actually knew about hygiene and just do as they are told.

    This isn't a law; it's up to the various restaurants and other
    establishments. A fine dining establishment can even require male customers
    to wear a coat and tie to be served, while a becahfront establishment might
    be just fine with shoeless, shirtless customers sauntering up to the bar.

    The question is not whether shoes and a shirt are the law; it's a question of whether individual businesses can uphold certain clothing standards for their on-site customers. Generally speaking, they can, and it really has nothing to do with the media.

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Jeff on Tue Apr 6 14:11:43 2021
    Re: Re: to mask or not to mask, again
    By: Jeff to Paradigms Shifting on Tue Apr 06 2021 09:11 am


    Oh, really? Has anyone told ER staff about this?

    Jeff.


    For decades, the boxes in which masks are distributed come with a disclaimer that
    surgery grade masks are not apt for defense against biological agents and diseases.

    So yeah the boxes told the ER staff.

    Actually I don't go as far as to say masks are useless ins this regard, but they are
    not half as powerful as people makes them to be. I think they are being so heavily
    promoted just because governments need people to believe something is being done, and
    wearing a mask is a cheap way of achieving peace of mind for a lot of people.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Arelor on Tue Apr 6 14:42:46 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Arelor said the following...
    Oh, really? Has anyone told ER staff about this?
    For decades, the boxes in which masks are distributed come with a disclaimer that
    surgery grade masks are not apt for defense against biological agents and diseases.

    Oh, really? I wouldn't think they'd be as good as MOPP 4, but they do provide protection.

    So yeah the boxes told the ER staff.

    So doctors and nurses have been using these masks for decades, but they do no good whatsoever? If true, then medical professionals should be the sickest among us, don't you think?

    Actually I don't go as far as to say masks are useless ins this regard,

    And now we're walking it back? What about those disclaimers?

    but they are
    not half as powerful as people makes them to be. I think they are being

    How powerful is that? Couldn't you just take whatever protection they do provide, multiply by two and add one, and say they're not half that powerful
    as this new imaginary mask?

    so heavily
    promoted just because governments need people to believe something is being done, and

    I see. That is a convenient belief.

    wearing a mask is a cheap way of achieving peace of mind for a lot of people.

    I don't buy it. I wear a mask when I have to go out, but I only go out as necessary. I wouldn't say that masks give me peace of mind.

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Arelor on Tue Apr 6 14:55:35 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Arelor said the following...
    For decades, the boxes in which masks are distributed come with a disclaimer that
    surgery grade masks are not apt for defense against biological agents and diseases.

    Also, I'm really into home recording. Have you ever seen a pop filter? It's a (usually circular) screen that sits between a vocalist and a microphone. Its purpose is to disperse energy from plosives, vocal sounds that involve projecting a puff of air (t, k, p, d, g, and b).

    Does it protect against disease? No, but it's not intended to. What it does
    do is disrupt airflow to limit the range that a puff of air can travel,
    thereby preventing loud, distorted pops in the recorded material. It also does a pretty fair job of keeping drops of spittle out of the microphone.

    If you need one but don't have one, you could make one out of a kitchen splatter screen and some pantyhose. There's nothing particularly space-age about them.

    And that's what masks do. Combined with social distancing, they can be pretty effective.

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Jeff on Tue Apr 6 17:23:06 2021
    Re: Re: to mask or not to mask, again
    By: Jeff to Arelor on Tue Apr 06 2021 03:42 pm


    but they are
    not half as powerful as people makes them to be. I think they are being

    How powerful is that? Couldn't you just take whatever protection they do provide, multiply by two and
    one, and say they're not half that powerful
    as this new imaginary mask?

    No need to be aggressive.

    All I am saying is mask manufacturers have been claiming their products are not to be used as protection
    against biological agents and diseases before the COVID crisis hit, and that the effectivity of masks is
    being magnified in the eyes of the public for mass psychological reasons.

    This is not inconsistent with claiming that masks are useful or that they serve as partial mitigation.

    Since the effectivity of masks has become a political topic, in which people takes tribalistic
    positions and assumes everybody who does not agree 100% with them is a member of an opposite tribe, and
    therefore must be destroyed, I am letting the matter drop.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Arelor on Tue Apr 6 18:41:18 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Arelor said the following...
    No need to be aggressive.
    How powerful is that? Couldn't you just take whatever protection they d provide, multiply by two and
    one, and say they're not half that powerful
    as this new imaginary mask?

    No need to be aggressive.

    That wasn't aggressive; that was logic.

    All I am saying is mask manufacturers have been claiming their products are not to be used as protection
    against biological agents and diseases before the COVID crisis hit, and that the effectivity of masks is
    being magnified in the eyes of the public for mass psychological reasons.

    What mask manufacturers have been claiming is that a face mask is not the equivalent of MOPP 4, not that they provide no protection at all. Masks do prevent transmission of disease, especially if the infected person is the one wearing the mask. If you walk into a cloud of biological agent, the mask probably won't protect you. But if you put someone on a table and slice them open, chances are pretty good that a mask, gown, and gloves will prevent that person from getting any infections from you, provided that you're the one wearing them.

    Along the same lines, face shields are also recommended under certain circumstances. Why is that? Because COVID can also be contracted via the
    eyes. It can be *caught* via the eyes, but no one is shooting COVID beams out of their eyeballs. Masks protect other people; face-shields protect the
    wearer.

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Arelor on Tue Apr 6 18:42:54 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Arelor said the following...
    Since the effectivity of masks has become a political topic, in which people takes tribalistic
    positions and assumes everybody who does not agree 100% with them is a member of an opposite tribe, and
    therefore must be destroyed, I am letting the matter drop.

    That it most definitely has, and that's quite interesting, don't you think?

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Jeff on Wed Apr 7 01:45:39 2021
    Re: Re: to mask or not to mask, again
    By: Jeff to Arelor on Tue Apr 06 2021 07:42 pm

    On 06 Apr 2021, Arelor said the following...
    Since the effectivity of masks has become a political topic, in which people
    takes tribalistic
    positions and assumes everybody who does not agree 100% with them is a member
    an opposite tribe, and
    therefore must be destroyed, I am letting the matter drop.

    That it most definitely has, and that's quite interesting, don't you think?

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." --
    L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    It is not interesting, it is an instance of something the Chinesse have known for
    centuries.

    If you are a political agent, you take a hard fact and present it to your followers
    under a twisted light, your followers will start assuming the twisted version is close
    to Holy Truth and act on it.

    Given enough time, your followers will be able to identify anybody who is not a follower just by the fact they don't follow your interpretation on the subject.

    For example, if the political party I rule starts claiming that protein rich diet is
    more important for building muscle than exercising, in a matter of months my followers
    will all be eating protein like crazy. Better yet, everybody who is not eating protein
    like crazy or claims aloud that exercise is what you need in order to build muscle
    will be automatically identified as a non follower.

    It is a very clever way of forcing people to reveal their political affiliations
    without asking them their political affiliation. If you take somebody to TV and ask
    them what is the best way to build muscle, your answer will reveal where his loyalties
    lay. You have turned something that is not political into a political marker.

    The Chinesse have a fable in which a politician used this same technique to messure
    the strength of political factions in order to decide who had to be marked for assassination and whose faction was stronger. In fact, this is phenomena is so widely
    known that hey have an idiom for it.

    https://chinese-story-collection.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-chinese-of-call-deer-horse-z
    hi-lu.html


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
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  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Arelor on Wed Apr 7 20:18:23 2021
    On 07 Apr 2021 at 02:45a, Arelor pondered and said...

    an opposite tribe, and
    therefore must be destroyed, I am letting the matter drop.

    That it most definitely has, and that's quite interesting, don't you th

    Jeff.

    It is not interesting, it is an instance of something the Chinesse have known for
    centuries.

    I'd say... it's best you both agree to disagree, drop the thread and move on from this topic.

    To all reading - if you can see things are heading down a path whereby your feeling aggravated and it's clear to others the discourse is not going well it's best to agree to disagree and move on to something more interesting you can discuss without it leading to discord.

    [snip]

    == Goals ====================================================================

    Develop and encourage international communications between 100 (or more) geographically diverse bulletin board system operators (members)
    and their users in order to:

    - Support and create learning and experimental opportunities
    - Explore and develop new and interesting methods of online communication
    - Foster international friendships without borders
    - Raise awareness of BBS as a hobby and communications option for
    the 21st century

    == Values ===================================================================

    - Have fun!
    - Keep it simple
    - Be kind, respectful and helpful
    - Reject disruptive conduct that willfully incites discord

    [snip]

    Thanks all!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From phxl@21:1/112 to All on Tue May 18 07:22:33 2021
    We live in Idiocracy, which resides somewhere between 1984 and Brave New World. No conspiracy rabbit holes required, those with eyes to see need only to look around to see the obvious.

    So if you think its nuts now, fasten your seat belt! You ain't seen nothin'yet!

    Next up, Grapes of Wrath the 2022 remake.. since you know "People won't return to work because unemployment dwarfs their paycheck" or something like that.

    The law is dead as far as I'm concerned and the Constitution has become toilet paper. The Constitution was originally designed to restrict government, but now there is no way to discern where corporations begin andgovernment ends, because they are so deeply in each others pockets.

    See my above comment and I completely agree with you. For anyone in need of examples, see the news this past week. In Mississippi the ruling class just undermined 75% of the voting base that voted for a free open self-sustaining medical marijuana system and over turned it using a loophole that basically stated it was Unconstitutional for the people in a democratic republic to participate in the creation of legislation. Members of the republican half of the state legislature went as far as to say "people elect us to decide these things they shouldn't be allowed to ammend the constitution themselves" then passed a backdoor law that instills a medical weed program but rigs the system where it is insanely for profit (theirs) and has rules including "a medical doctor and a pharmacist must be employed by every grower/dispensary, liquid assets in the amount of 2 million$ minimum to participate in running a grow op or a dispensary, and then several state legislatures formed a LLC with "Consulting" in the title that "helps potential growers and distributor operations connect with medical professionals and pharmacists for a fee". (of course).

    Just an example of the rampant crony shit that goes on today in
    American gov. and that's on a state level. Hell, Louisiana is a toxic waste dumping ground because of sell out, self serving "ruling class". Look at the statistics for most common causes of death in that state. There are causes in the top ten that aren't present in any surrounding state. One is bacterial infections of the blood stream; the numbers in cancer are inflated compared to elsewhere as well.

    For decades now people have accepted the behavior of these sell out, self serving, morally and ethically devoid, ghouls; continually ignoring or even actively voting for them and their spoiled offspring heir apparent. They're our judges, our law makers, they run our law enforcement. Modern slavery is alive and well in every state to a degree; enabled through abuse of the work release program and a never ending stream of drug addicts who have given up on our society that has basically devolved to the working class being enslaved to the fat and rich minority, never able to purchase a home or afford to enjoy any luxury in their lives because it's hard enough just to keep everyone in their family alive and fed macaroni from a box.

    People used to buy new cars for a couple grand in 1973 (pulled randomly here is a link:

    https://blog.consumerguide.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/12/Screen-Shot-2 016-12-13-at-10.13.15-AM-742x1024.png

    1973 foreign import prices.. (spoiler: a high end mercedes benz 450 is about ~10 grand, but an Audi or something reasonable is between 2000$ and 3500$) and people will argue "Well, minimum wage was $1.60 back then". Do you know who made mimimum wage? 14 year olds and people who worked at the concession stand at the little league park.

    This is speculation, but from what I gather from relatives and older people who were working during this time, very few adults outside of high school age made minimum wage. Paying people minimum wage for every goddamn entry level job didn't become envogue until the 90s it seems like (perhaps the rich were offsetting the money they blew on cocaine and hookers in the 1980s).

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2020/12/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Black Flag <ACiD Telnet HQ> blackflagbbs.com (21:1/112)
  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to phxl on Tue May 18 15:15:47 2021
    phxl wrote to All <=-

    1973 foreign import prices.. (spoiler: a high end mercedes benz 450 is about ~10 grand, but an Audi or something reasonable is between 2000$
    and 3500$) and people will argue "Well, minimum wage was $1.60 back
    then". Do you know who made mimimum wage? 14 year olds and people who worked at the concession stand at the little league park.

    This is speculation, but from what I gather from relatives and older people who were working during this time, very few adults outside of
    high school age made minimum wage. Paying people minimum wage for
    every goddamn entry level job didn't become envogue until the 90s it
    seems like (perhaps the rich were offsetting the money they blew on cocaine and hookers in the 1980s).

    They didn't get minimum wage, but they also didn't make what they would
    now, either. For the same people who cannot afford them now, or think they
    are too expensive now, $2000-$3500 would have been too much/too expensive
    back then.



    ... Computer Hacker wanted. Must have own axe.
    --- MultiMail
    * Origin: Possum Lodge South * possumso.fsxnet.nz:7636/SSH:2122 (21:4/134)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to phxl on Wed May 19 06:12:45 2021
    need of examples, see the news this past week. In Mississippi the
    ruling class just undermined 75% of the voting base that voted for a

    Just FYI, it's against network rules to talk politics (take a look at the
    info pack that gets released frequently, and should be on all FSXnet BBSs).

    Thankfully, it doesn't seem like anything is getting heated, here, but I tend to figure it's nice to remind ourselves to avoid politics and religion, since they're restricted topics, here.

    Largely because of how heated they tend to get. But, personally, I also like the rule because I mentally start debating everything, and I'd rather not have to bother suppressing that urge.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From phxl@21:1/112 to All on Thu May 20 12:10:53 2021
    They didn't get minimum wage, but they also didn't make what they would now, either. For the same people who cannot afford them now, or think theyare too expensive now, $2000-$3500 would have been too much/too expensiveback then.

    Surely there were people selling used vehicles back then like now?? So if todays equivalent is paying 22,000$ for a new low end vehicle.. and back then was like $2000 well.. hrm.. $700 bucks surely could have got you a nice ride.. hell they probably had $100 beater cars you could drive around uninsured and HALF-drunk and nobody batted an eye; pretty much right? i mean.. 50 years ago?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2020/12/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Black Flag <ACiD Telnet HQ> blackflagbbs.com (21:1/112)
  • From phxl@21:1/112 to All on Thu May 20 12:12:34 2021
    need of examples, see the news this past week. In Mississippi the ruling class just undermined 75% of the voting base that voted for a

    Just FYI, it's against network rules to talk politics (take a look at the info pack that gets released frequently, and should be on all FSXnet
    BBSs)

    I apologize and respect the rule, thank you.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2020/12/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Black Flag <ACiD Telnet HQ> blackflagbbs.com (21:1/112)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to phxl on Thu May 20 14:58:23 2021
    Re: to mask or not to mask, again
    By: phxl to All on Thu May 20 2021 01:10 pm

    They didn't get minimum wage, but they also didn't make what they would now, either. For t
    same people who cannot afford them now, or think theyare too expensive now, $2000-$3500 wou
    have been too much/too expensiveback then.

    Surely there were people selling used vehicles back then like now?? So if todays equivalent is
    paying 22,000$ for a new low end vehicle.. and back then was like $2000 well.. hrm.. $700 bucks
    surely could have got you a nice ride.. hell they probably had $100 beater cars you could drive
    around uninsured and HALF-drunk and nobody batted an eye; pretty much right? i mean.. 50 years a

    We had a "nice" dictatorship 50 years ago in Spain. People was getting paid wages regulated by
    state controlled unions - which were supposedly fair - but if you complained about the General's
    haircut you disappeared mysteriously. Not to mention that what you could buy with a fair wage was
    not that great at the time.

    So, things are not going great but I don't feel like going back in time 50 years either.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Paradigms Shifting@21:1/101 to Jeff on Tue Apr 19 12:02:00 2022
    On 06 Apr 2021 at 09:11a, Jeff pondered and said...

    On 06 Apr 2021, Paradigms Shifting said the following...

    On 01 Apr 2021 at 10:27a, Jeff pondered and said...

    On 31 Mar 2021, Ogg said the following...
    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she wa
    a patron to conduct business.

    And yet, "No shoes, no shirt, no service."

    Good observation. You would think that the biz owner can't refuse service to people under those grounds either. But I think there are some laws that govern decency that a biz ow can fall back on.

    Either decency or hygiene. I would think that wearing/not wearin would fall under hygiene.

    Not necessarily. The science has been clear for years that not only a masks completely ineffective in preventing the spread of disease, but also that long term mask usage can be harmful in a variety of ways. I is not about safety, it is about control.

    Oh, really? Has anyone told ER staff about this?

    Prior to 2020, it was common "science" that both OR and ER staff would wear masks to prevent spit, etc from getting into the wounds of patents. They also would not wear masks consistently for the entire work shift. They would take breaks.

    I would however like to encourage people to neither believe nor disbelieve anything I say about it. Go look up the peer reviewed studies about long term mask use and how the bacteria collects in the masks, as well as what it does to oxygen levels. Go check out OSHA certified oxygen measuring devices, and the levels of low oxygen and increased CO2 that the device itself considers as dangerous.

    Thats really all I can suggest for anyone on any topic. To look at everything, never cherrypick the data and never just blindly believe or disbelieve anyone, whether it is a government official, someone on TV, or even a friend, relative or some rando on the internet. Always use the scientific method, compare all sides and come to your own conclusions and decide what is best for you.

    I think thats reasonable.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Paradigms Shifting@21:1/101 to Jeff on Tue Apr 19 12:06:16 2022
    On 06 Apr 2021 at 09:18a, Jeff pondered and said...

    On 06 Apr 2021, Paradigms Shifting said the following...
    So this is not as straight forward as "having no shoes and no shirt i the store is bad hygiene". And if we're being honest, if the main str media started telling everyone that shoes and shirts were dangerous, they'd toss all common sense out the window, forget everything they e actually knew about hygiene and just do as they are told.

    This isn't a law; it's up to the various restaurants and other establishments. A fine dining establishment can even require male customers to wear a coat and tie to be served, while a becahfront establishment might be just fine with shoeless, shirtless customers sauntering up to the bar.

    The question is not whether shoes and a shirt are the law; it's a
    question of whether individual businesses can uphold certain clothing standards for their on-site customers. Generally speaking, they can, and it really has nothing to do with the media.


    There have always been laws against medical discrimination. They're just not upheld anymore. But businesses used to have to abide by them, by law. Just as it is against the law to disallow someone into your business based on skin color, religion, sexuality, gender, etc.

    Laws only mean anything if they are upheld by law enforcement and the courts. If they are not upheld, then what laws are actually on the books doesn't actually matter.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Warpslide on Wed Mar 31 09:29:00 2021
    Hello Warpslide!

    ** On Wednesday 31.03.21 - 08:28, Warpslide wrote to Paradigms Shifting:

    The people we should be concerned about are those who flagrantly disregard our new normal because it conflicts with their freedom or they have a "medical condition".

    Are you assuming that all claims citing conflict of freedom or
    the "medical condition" (your quotes, not mine) are fakery?


    I witnessed a woman screaming at the top of her lungs because she wasn't allowed in a grocery store without a mask. She was being quite loud and obnoxious about it, making quite a scene, all the while holding up the (quite long) line behind her. At one point while carrying on she got almost nose -to-nose with the manager while screaming at him. So much for 6ft apart.

    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as
    a patron to conduct business.

    https://youtu.be/0knrnCBurQ8

    It is too bad she was screaming and not conducting the
    "distancing" part though; the biz owner could probably ask her
    to leave on those grounds.

    I operate a small retail space too. As the video mentions, a
    licensed biz has no right to NOT allow the public into the space
    for "patrons", mask or no mask. So.. it someone entered for the
    sole purposes to strut their naked face and not seem to buy
    anything (or attempt to use my private bathroom) ..then I can
    ask that person to leave - if not, I need to call the police I
    guess. But I would at least try to get a picture of the person
    so that they can be identified later if they leave befor the
    police arrive.

    But it is the biz's obligation to "convey" that masks are
    required. Now.. I personally don't have any signs that have
    "must have masks upon entry..", but I wear a mask myself - and
    that is how I "convey" the matter.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Warpslide@21:3/110 to Ogg on Wed Mar 31 11:59:52 2021
    *** Quoting Ogg from a message to Warpslide ***

    our new normal because it conflicts with their freedom or they have a "medical condition".

    Are you assuming that all claims citing conflict of freedom or the "medical condition" (your quotes, not mine) are fakery?

    Not at all, there are people who genuinely can't wear a mask (people who have COPD come to mine) - But in those cases places like Fortinos require that you wear a face shield instead. This lady wouldn't have any of it, she wanted
    to walk into the store without either.

    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as a
    patron to conduct business.

    Yup, and that's exactly what they did. After she got near nose-to-nose with the manager (he was wearing a mask, she wasn't) was near the end of the encounter. After that she left, again screaming at the top of her lungs,
    that she has a "medical condition" and that "you'll be hearing from lawyers".

    It's hard to have empathy for a person who acts in such a way.

    But it is the biz's obligation to "convey" that masks are required. Now.. I personally don't have any signs that have "must have masks
    upon entry..", but Iwear a mask myself - and that is how I "convey"
    the matter.

    The City of Hamilton has bylaws in place saying that you have to display this sign and that sign, in addition to any other restrictions that the business would like to impose. "Wear a Mask", "Do you have any of these symptoms", "Max occupancy", etc..

    There is one Pet Valu close to my house that has so many signs on the door that you can't see in to know how many people are in the store.

    Jay

    ... I'm not broke, I'm just badly bent.

    --- Telegard v3.09.g2-sp4/mL
    * Origin: Northern Realms | 289-424-5180 | bbs.nrbbs.net (21:3/110)
  • From Paradigms Shifting@21:1/101 to Ogg on Thu Apr 1 15:32:26 2021
    On 31 Mar 2021 at 09:29a, Ogg pondered and said...

    Hello Warpslide!

    ** On Wednesday 31.03.21 - 08:28, Warpslide wrote to Paradigms Shifting:

    The people we should be concerned about are those who flagrantly disre our new normal because it conflicts with their freedom or they have a "medical condition".

    Are you assuming that all claims citing conflict of freedom or
    the "medical condition" (your quotes, not mine) are fakery?


    I witnessed a woman screaming at the top of her lungs because she wasn allowed in a grocery store without a mask. She was being quite loud a obnoxious about it, making quite a scene, all the while holding up the (quite long) line behind her. At one point while carrying on she got almost nose -to-nose with the manager while screaming at him. So much 6ft apart.

    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as
    a patron to conduct business.

    https://youtu.be/0knrnCBurQ8

    I completely agree. There are medical discrimination laws in place, and with places such as Costco completely disregarding this fact, I can imagine that after awhile there is going to be a lot of class action suits against them.

    There are also laws in place protecting ideological, religious, etc freedoms
    as well. So on the other side of the coin, you can't tell a Muslim woman
    she can't wear a burka. Just as an example.

    It is also against OSHA guidelines to force employees to wear a mask all day. Of course OSHA isn't enforcing this at the moment, in fact they are ignoring it.

    The law is dead as far as I'm concerned and the Constitution has become
    toilet paper. The Constitution was originally designed to restrict
    government, but now there is no way to discern where corporations begin and government ends, because they are so deeply in each others pockets.

    This country, has become a technocratic dictatorship waging war (mostly psychological) on the people. So as far as I'm concerned:

    RIP USA
    1776 - 2020

    The USA has been on a downward spiral for many decades, but in 2020 the
    journey to the bottom concluded.

    We live in Idiocracy, which resides somewhere between 1984 and Brave New
    World. No conspiracy rabbit holes required, those with eyes to see need
    only to look around to see the obvious.

    So if you think its nuts now, fasten your seat belt! You ain't seen nothin' yet!

    .:- Paradigms Shifting -:.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Warpslide on Wed Mar 31 22:38:00 2021
    Hello Warpslide!

    ** On Wednesday 31.03.21 - 11:59, Warpslide wrote to Ogg:

    Are you assuming that all claims citing conflict of freedom or the
    "medical condition" (your quotes, not mine) are fakery?

    Not at all, there are people who genuinely can't wear a mask (people who have COPD come to mine) ...

    Oh, sorry. I assumed that since you put "medical condition"
    quotes you were being suspicious of those claims people can
    make.

    But note, that the provincial ordinace does not preclude anyone
    from not wearing any face covering if they choose. And.. the biz
    owner cannot demand any proof of medical condition claims.

    - But in those cases places like Fortinos require that you
    wear a face shield instead. This lady wouldn't have any of
    it, she wanted to walk into the store without either.

    Yes.. there is what is called a requirement (it's effectively
    just an expectation only) to wear masks upon entering
    businesses, but the person can cite an exemption.

    The gov't wants businesses to convey mask rules, but it sounds
    like constitutional rights trump such expectations.

    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as a
    patron to conduct business.

    Yup, and that's exactly what they did. After she got near
    nose-to-nose with the manager (he was wearing a mask, she
    wasn't) was near the end of the encounter. After that she
    left, again screaming at the top of her lungs, that she has
    a "medical condition" and that "you'll be hearing from
    lawyers".

    Too bad she lost her cool. She may get a constitutional lawyer
    involved (which will not cost her a thing) but her shouting and
    close proximity with someone during the argument in the store
    may not be in her favour.

    It's hard to have empathy for a person who acts in such a way.

    I was in a check-out queue at my local NoFrills a few weeks ago
    with a cart and a couple of young dudes who were behind me, did
    not have a cart and seemed to come a bit close. I ignored it and
    figured as long as my back is to them, it didn't matter. Usually
    everyone would have a cart in front of them that acted as a
    suitable spacing guideline from person to person. Well.. the
    person in front of me seemed a bit concerned that the dudes were
    too close behind my back, and ask them to move back. (At this
    point I was probably a visible minority of the "vulnerable
    senior" category, I guess.) The woman in front of me seemed
    much younger than me too. A petty argument ensued between the
    person in front of me and the dudes behind me about the risks
    and non-risks of covid. I was probably getting all the benefit
    of the spit particles that both sides were shouting out.
    Eventually, a manager/stock boy noticed the raised voices, came
    over and tried to tell the dudes to calm down.

    I just rolled my eyes. I looked at the woman ahead of me
    mouthed "It's ok". I sent the same message to the people behind
    me.

    ..I personally don't have any signs that have "must have
    masks upon entry..", but Iwear a mask myself - and that
    is how I "convey" the matter.

    The City of Hamilton has bylaws in place saying that you
    have to display this sign and that sign, in addition to any
    other restrictions that the business would like to impose.
    "Wear a Mask", "Do you have any of these symptoms", "Max
    occupancy", etc..

    I will post any signage that I *must* have IF it is provided for
    me. I will not expend resources and time to print and plaster
    shit all over my windows.

    There is one Pet Valu close to my house that has so many
    signs on the door that you can't see in to know how many
    people are in the store.

    The little deli next door to me had this in Sep 2020:

    https://photos.kolico.ca/tmp/IMG_20200920_110455.jpg

    And this is the same door about 5 months later:

    https://photos.kolico.ca/tmp/IMG_20210213_164625.jpg

    I'm NOT going to muck up my glass like that.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Ogg on Wed Mar 31 21:41:58 2021
    On 31 Mar 2021, Ogg said the following...
    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as
    a patron to conduct business.

    And yet, "No shoes, no shirt, no service."

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to Warpslide on Thu Apr 1 02:49:18 2021
    There is one Pet Valu close to my house that has so many signs on the
    door that you can't see in to know how many people are in the store.

    After working at libraries for many years, I grew to enjoy saying, "signs are for ignoring". Because _everyone_ misses signs, because there are _so_ many, because people want to get other people to do various things. Which, of
    course, is not the way to actually get people to do various things.

    But signs are _super_ useful _when people are looking for them_.

    These two aspects are often in conflict.

    E.g., we had self-checkouts, and we _knew_ there were some common stumbling blocks. So, of course, we put up a sign.

    So eventually I wound up helping a woman with the self-checkout, and after explaining the workaround for the difficulty she was experiencing, she said something along the lines of, "you should put up a sign about that".

    At which point I picked up the sign and said, "like this one?".

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Jeff on Wed Mar 31 23:59:00 2021
    Hello Jeff!

    ** On Wednesday 31.03.21 - 21:41, Jeff wrote to Ogg:

    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as
    a patron to conduct business.

    And yet, "No shoes, no shirt, no service."

    Good observation. You would think that the biz owner can't
    refuse service to people under those grounds either. But I
    think there are some laws that govern decency that a biz owner
    can fall back on.

    I had a fellow enter my store reeking of something a bit too
    rotten for many other people's liking, and it wasn't cannabis. I
    had to kindly encourage the person to leave.


    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Paradigms Shifting on Thu Apr 1 00:39:00 2021
    Hello Paradigms Shifting!

    ** On Thursday 01.04.21 - 15:32, Paradigms Shifting wrote to Ogg:

    We live in Idiocracy, which resides somewhere between 1984
    and Brave New World. No conspiracy rabbit holes required,
    those with eyes to see need only to look around to see the
    obvious.

    This is an interesting book, from over 10 years ago!

    Virus Mania: How the Medical Industry Continually Invents
    Epidemics, Making Billion-Dollar Profits at Our Expense |
    Paperback
    Torsten Engelbrecht | Claus Koehnlein | Etienne de Harven MD
    Trafford Publishing | Trafford Pub
    Health & Fitness / Diseases / Business & Economics / Commerce
    Published Sep 19, 2007
    $24.00 US list price

    You can read a description here:

    https://tinyurl.com/yfyc6ffk

    There is an updated reprint edition with the subtitle "Virus
    Mania: Corona/COVID-19, Measles, Swine Flu, Cervical Cancer,
    Avian Flu, SARS, BSE, Hepatitis C, AIDS, Polio. How the Medical
    Industry Continually Invents Epidemics, Making Billion-Dollar
    Profits At Our Expense"

    So if you think its nuts now, fasten your seat belt! You
    ain't seen nothin' yet!

    On one side of the coin I see economic experts predicting a
    major crash. But just tonight on the evening news was a
    comparison that our economy is mirroring the roaring 20s that
    followed the Spanish Flu epidemic.

    I don't know what to think or believe anymore. Maybe that is the
    goal of the media and the elite - and thus keep the public under
    control by fear and confusion.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.49
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Ogg on Thu Apr 1 10:27:50 2021
    On 31 Mar 2021, Ogg said the following...
    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as
    a patron to conduct business.

    And yet, "No shoes, no shirt, no service."

    Good observation. You would think that the biz owner can't
    refuse service to people under those grounds either. But I
    think there are some laws that govern decency that a biz owner
    can fall back on.

    Either decency or hygiene. I would think that wearing/not wearing a mask
    would fall under hygiene.

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Paradigms Shifting@21:1/101 to Adept on Tue Apr 6 21:35:16 2021
    On 01 Apr 2021 at 02:49a, Adept pondered and said...

    There is one Pet Valu close to my house that has so many signs on the door that you can't see in to know how many people are in the store.

    After working at libraries for many years, I grew to enjoy saying,
    "signs are for ignoring". Because _everyone_ misses signs, because there are _so_ many, because people want to get other people to do various things. Which, of course, is not the way to actually get people to do various things.

    But signs are _super_ useful _when people are looking for them_.

    These two aspects are often in conflict.

    E.g., we had self-checkouts, and we _knew_ there were some common stumbling blocks. So, of course, we put up a sign.

    So eventually I wound up helping a woman with the self-checkout, and
    after explaining the workaround for the difficulty she was experiencing, she said something along the lines of, "you should put up a sign about that".

    At which point I picked up the sign and said, "like this one?".

    Indeed. For example, there are some dog walkers in my neighborhood that seem
    to think that people's private property (front lawns, etc) are their personal doggy toilet to which they have some sort of imaginary right to let their
    dogs piss and shit there.

    Tried asking nicely, did not work.
    Tried asking not so nicely, did not work.
    A sign surely would not have worked any better.

    Eventually, I found a solution.

    I started telling them "Just so you know, my lawn as well as the lawns of my neighbors on either side, are chemically fertilized. I wouldn't want your dog to get sick!"

    Their response was to thank me, and to comply.

    For when I am not around, seeing as my water is not metered, I just let the sprinkler run. Neither the dog nor their owner wants to get sprayed, so they cross to the other side of the block.

    Signs are equally ineffective on BBSes. Back in the day, when I really needed my users to know something, all of the announcements, e-mails, or login
    screens in the world wouldn't bust through the titanium shield of their
    narrow attention spans.

    The only way to get people to comply with something or be notified of something, is to either figure out how to make it literally impossible for
    them to do whatever it is, or to approach them in a way to where they have incentive of either personal benefit, and / or avoiding inconvenience.

    .:- Paradigms Shifting -:.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Paradigms Shifting@21:1/101 to Ogg on Tue Apr 6 22:52:06 2021
    On 01 Apr 2021 at 12:39a, Ogg pondered and said...

    Hello Paradigms Shifting!

    ** On Thursday 01.04.21 - 15:32, Paradigms Shifting wrote to Ogg:

    We live in Idiocracy, which resides somewhere between 1984
    and Brave New World. No conspiracy rabbit holes required,
    those with eyes to see need only to look around to see the
    obvious.

    This is an interesting book, from over 10 years ago!

    Virus Mania: How the Medical Industry Continually Invents
    Epidemics, Making Billion-Dollar Profits at Our Expense |
    Paperback
    Torsten Engelbrecht | Claus Koehnlein | Etienne de Harven MD
    Trafford Publishing | Trafford Pub
    Health & Fitness / Diseases / Business & Economics / Commerce
    Published Sep 19, 2007
    $24.00 US list price

    You can read a description here:

    https://tinyurl.com/yfyc6ffk

    There is an updated reprint edition with the subtitle "Virus
    Mania: Corona/COVID-19, Measles, Swine Flu, Cervical Cancer,
    Avian Flu, SARS, BSE, Hepatitis C, AIDS, Polio. How the Medical
    Industry Continually Invents Epidemics, Making Billion-Dollar
    Profits At Our Expense"


    Never read it, but I have heard of it at least once.

    So if you think its nuts now, fasten your seat belt! You
    ain't seen nothin' yet!

    On one side of the coin I see economic experts predicting a
    major crash. But just tonight on the evening news was a
    comparison that our economy is mirroring the roaring 20s that
    followed the Spanish Flu epidemic.

    I don't know what to think or believe anymore. Maybe that is the
    goal of the media and the elite - and thus keep the public under
    control by fear and confusion.

    Information is neither positive nor negative, it just "is". Our reaction / response to information can be positive or negative. So, just think of this stuff as being like computer repair. If you're in fear, you'll never learn to understand how the computer works, much less how to fix it. But if you just study the information calmly, then you'll be able to confidently face even
    the most annoying computer issues.

    If you watch any good documentaries on The Federal Reserve Bank and
    Fractional Reserve Banking, it will clear up a lot of confusion. The money system is far more simple than people think. They make it seem overly
    confusing in order to discourage people from learning about it.

    .:- Paradigms Shifting -:.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Paradigms Shifting@21:1/101 to Jeff on Tue Apr 6 23:02:50 2021
    On 01 Apr 2021 at 10:27a, Jeff pondered and said...

    On 31 Mar 2021, Ogg said the following...
    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was there as
    a patron to conduct business.

    And yet, "No shoes, no shirt, no service."

    Good observation. You would think that the biz owner can't
    refuse service to people under those grounds either. But I
    think there are some laws that govern decency that a biz owner
    can fall back on.

    Either decency or hygiene. I would think that wearing/not wearing a mask would fall under hygiene.

    Not necessarily. The science has been clear for years that not only are masks completely ineffective in preventing the spread of disease, but also that
    long term mask usage can be harmful in a variety of ways. It is not about safety, it is about control.

    With that said, and shop owners being human -- the shop owner is not going to care if you have all of the evidence in the world, signed by God and
    notarized by St. Peter. The shop owner is not going to care about what
    existing laws all of this stuff actually violates. The shop owner is not
    going to have that debate, nor look at any evidence. The shop owner, being neither a doctor, nor anything remotely resembling someone highly
    knowledgeable about the law, is only going to blindly obey perceived
    authority, and only in such a way as it aligns with his or her existing world view.

    So this is not as straight forward as "having no shoes and no shirt in the store is bad hygiene". And if we're being honest, if the main stream media started telling everyone that shoes and shirts were dangerous, they'd toss
    all common sense out the window, forget everything they ever actually knew about hygiene and just do as they are told.

    Thats how humans roll, until or unless reality comes crashing down on them
    and they suffer enough to re-spark their two remaining functional brain cells.

    Not trying to be negative, just being honest about the matter.

    .:- Paradigms Shifting -:.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Paradigms Shifting on Tue Apr 6 09:11:24 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Paradigms Shifting said the following...

    On 01 Apr 2021 at 10:27a, Jeff pondered and said...

    On 31 Mar 2021, Ogg said the following...
    The biz had no right to "not" allow her in, if she was the
    a patron to conduct business.

    And yet, "No shoes, no shirt, no service."

    Good observation. You would think that the biz owner can't refuse service to people under those grounds either. But I think there are some laws that govern decency that a biz owner can fall back on.

    Either decency or hygiene. I would think that wearing/not wearing a m would fall under hygiene.

    Not necessarily. The science has been clear for years that not only are masks completely ineffective in preventing the spread of disease, but
    also that long term mask usage can be harmful in a variety of ways. It
    is not about safety, it is about control.

    Oh, really? Has anyone told ER staff about this?

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Paradigms Shifting on Tue Apr 6 09:18:14 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Paradigms Shifting said the following...
    So this is not as straight forward as "having no shoes and no shirt in
    the store is bad hygiene". And if we're being honest, if the main stream media started telling everyone that shoes and shirts were dangerous, they'd toss all common sense out the window, forget everything they ever actually knew about hygiene and just do as they are told.

    This isn't a law; it's up to the various restaurants and other
    establishments. A fine dining establishment can even require male customers
    to wear a coat and tie to be served, while a becahfront establishment might
    be just fine with shoeless, shirtless customers sauntering up to the bar.

    The question is not whether shoes and a shirt are the law; it's a question of whether individual businesses can uphold certain clothing standards for their on-site customers. Generally speaking, they can, and it really has nothing to do with the media.

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Jeff on Tue Apr 6 15:11:42 2021
    Re: Re: to mask or not to mask, again
    By: Jeff to Paradigms Shifting on Tue Apr 06 2021 09:11 am


    Oh, really? Has anyone told ER staff about this?

    Jeff.


    For decades, the boxes in which masks are distributed come with a disclaimer that
    surgery grade masks are not apt for defense against biological agents and diseases.

    So yeah the boxes told the ER staff.

    Actually I don't go as far as to say masks are useless ins this regard, but they are
    not half as powerful as people makes them to be. I think they are being so heavily
    promoted just because governments need people to believe something is being done, and
    wearing a mask is a cheap way of achieving peace of mind for a lot of people.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Arelor on Tue Apr 6 15:42:46 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Arelor said the following...
    Oh, really? Has anyone told ER staff about this?
    For decades, the boxes in which masks are distributed come with a disclaimer that
    surgery grade masks are not apt for defense against biological agents and diseases.

    Oh, really? I wouldn't think they'd be as good as MOPP 4, but they do provide protection.

    So yeah the boxes told the ER staff.

    So doctors and nurses have been using these masks for decades, but they do no good whatsoever? If true, then medical professionals should be the sickest among us, don't you think?

    Actually I don't go as far as to say masks are useless ins this regard,

    And now we're walking it back? What about those disclaimers?

    but they are
    not half as powerful as people makes them to be. I think they are being

    How powerful is that? Couldn't you just take whatever protection they do provide, multiply by two and add one, and say they're not half that powerful
    as this new imaginary mask?

    so heavily
    promoted just because governments need people to believe something is being done, and

    I see. That is a convenient belief.

    wearing a mask is a cheap way of achieving peace of mind for a lot of people.

    I don't buy it. I wear a mask when I have to go out, but I only go out as necessary. I wouldn't say that masks give me peace of mind.

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Arelor on Tue Apr 6 15:55:34 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Arelor said the following...
    For decades, the boxes in which masks are distributed come with a disclaimer that
    surgery grade masks are not apt for defense against biological agents and diseases.

    Also, I'm really into home recording. Have you ever seen a pop filter? It's a (usually circular) screen that sits between a vocalist and a microphone. Its purpose is to disperse energy from plosives, vocal sounds that involve projecting a puff of air (t, k, p, d, g, and b).

    Does it protect against disease? No, but it's not intended to. What it does
    do is disrupt airflow to limit the range that a puff of air can travel,
    thereby preventing loud, distorted pops in the recorded material. It also does a pretty fair job of keeping drops of spittle out of the microphone.

    If you need one but don't have one, you could make one out of a kitchen splatter screen and some pantyhose. There's nothing particularly space-age about them.

    And that's what masks do. Combined with social distancing, they can be pretty effective.

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Jeff on Tue Apr 6 18:23:06 2021
    Re: Re: to mask or not to mask, again
    By: Jeff to Arelor on Tue Apr 06 2021 03:42 pm


    but they are
    not half as powerful as people makes them to be. I think they are being

    How powerful is that? Couldn't you just take whatever protection they do provide, multiply by two and
    one, and say they're not half that powerful
    as this new imaginary mask?

    No need to be aggressive.

    All I am saying is mask manufacturers have been claiming their products are not to be used as protection
    against biological agents and diseases before the COVID crisis hit, and that the effectivity of masks is
    being magnified in the eyes of the public for mass psychological reasons.

    This is not inconsistent with claiming that masks are useful or that they serve as partial mitigation.

    Since the effectivity of masks has become a political topic, in which people takes tribalistic
    positions and assumes everybody who does not agree 100% with them is a member of an opposite tribe, and
    therefore must be destroyed, I am letting the matter drop.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Arelor on Tue Apr 6 19:41:18 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Arelor said the following...
    No need to be aggressive.
    How powerful is that? Couldn't you just take whatever protection they d provide, multiply by two and
    one, and say they're not half that powerful
    as this new imaginary mask?

    No need to be aggressive.

    That wasn't aggressive; that was logic.

    All I am saying is mask manufacturers have been claiming their products are not to be used as protection
    against biological agents and diseases before the COVID crisis hit, and that the effectivity of masks is
    being magnified in the eyes of the public for mass psychological reasons.

    What mask manufacturers have been claiming is that a face mask is not the equivalent of MOPP 4, not that they provide no protection at all. Masks do prevent transmission of disease, especially if the infected person is the one wearing the mask. If you walk into a cloud of biological agent, the mask probably won't protect you. But if you put someone on a table and slice them open, chances are pretty good that a mask, gown, and gloves will prevent that person from getting any infections from you, provided that you're the one wearing them.

    Along the same lines, face shields are also recommended under certain circumstances. Why is that? Because COVID can also be contracted via the
    eyes. It can be *caught* via the eyes, but no one is shooting COVID beams out of their eyeballs. Masks protect other people; face-shields protect the
    wearer.

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Arelor on Tue Apr 6 19:42:54 2021
    On 06 Apr 2021, Arelor said the following...
    Since the effectivity of masks has become a political topic, in which people takes tribalistic
    positions and assumes everybody who does not agree 100% with them is a member of an opposite tribe, and
    therefore must be destroyed, I am letting the matter drop.

    That it most definitely has, and that's quite interesting, don't you think?

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." -- H. L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Jeff on Wed Apr 7 02:45:38 2021
    Re: Re: to mask or not to mask, again
    By: Jeff to Arelor on Tue Apr 06 2021 07:42 pm

    On 06 Apr 2021, Arelor said the following...
    Since the effectivity of masks has become a political topic, in which people
    takes tribalistic
    positions and assumes everybody who does not agree 100% with them is a member
    an opposite tribe, and
    therefore must be destroyed, I am letting the matter drop.

    That it most definitely has, and that's quite interesting, don't you think?

    Jeff.

    "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." --
    L. Mencken, who indeed was a racist thereby proving himself right.

    It is not interesting, it is an instance of something the Chinesse have known for
    centuries.

    If you are a political agent, you take a hard fact and present it to your followers
    under a twisted light, your followers will start assuming the twisted version is close
    to Holy Truth and act on it.

    Given enough time, your followers will be able to identify anybody who is not a follower just by the fact they don't follow your interpretation on the subject.

    For example, if the political party I rule starts claiming that protein rich diet is
    more important for building muscle than exercising, in a matter of months my followers
    will all be eating protein like crazy. Better yet, everybody who is not eating protein
    like crazy or claims aloud that exercise is what you need in order to build muscle
    will be automatically identified as a non follower.

    It is a very clever way of forcing people to reveal their political affiliations
    without asking them their political affiliation. If you take somebody to TV and ask
    them what is the best way to build muscle, your answer will reveal where his loyalties
    lay. You have turned something that is not political into a political marker.

    The Chinesse have a fable in which a politician used this same technique to messure
    the strength of political factions in order to decide who had to be marked for assassination and whose faction was stronger. In fact, this is phenomena is so widely
    known that hey have an idiom for it.

    https://chinese-story-collection.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-chinese-of-call-deer-horse-z
    hi-lu.html


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Avon@21:1/101 to Arelor on Wed Apr 7 21:18:22 2021
    On 07 Apr 2021 at 02:45a, Arelor pondered and said...

    an opposite tribe, and
    therefore must be destroyed, I am letting the matter drop.

    That it most definitely has, and that's quite interesting, don't you th

    Jeff.

    It is not interesting, it is an instance of something the Chinesse have known for
    centuries.

    I'd say... it's best you both agree to disagree, drop the thread and move on from this topic.

    To all reading - if you can see things are heading down a path whereby your feeling aggravated and it's clear to others the discourse is not going well it's best to agree to disagree and move on to something more interesting you can discuss without it leading to discord.

    [snip]

    == Goals ====================================================================

    Develop and encourage international communications between 100 (or more) geographically diverse bulletin board system operators (members)
    and their users in order to:

    - Support and create learning and experimental opportunities
    - Explore and develop new and interesting methods of online communication
    - Foster international friendships without borders
    - Raise awareness of BBS as a hobby and communications option for
    the 21st century

    == Values ===================================================================

    - Have fun!
    - Keep it simple
    - Be kind, respectful and helpful
    - Reject disruptive conduct that willfully incites discord

    [snip]

    Thanks all!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From phxl@21:1/112 to All on Tue May 18 08:22:32 2021
    We live in Idiocracy, which resides somewhere between 1984 and Brave New World. No conspiracy rabbit holes required, those with eyes to see need only to look around to see the obvious.

    So if you think its nuts now, fasten your seat belt! You ain't seen nothin'yet!

    Next up, Grapes of Wrath the 2022 remake.. since you know "People won't return to work because unemployment dwarfs their paycheck" or something like that.

    The law is dead as far as I'm concerned and the Constitution has become toilet paper. The Constitution was originally designed to restrict government, but now there is no way to discern where corporations begin andgovernment ends, because they are so deeply in each others pockets.

    See my above comment and I completely agree with you. For anyone in need of examples, see the news this past week. In Mississippi the ruling class just undermined 75% of the voting base that voted for a free open self-sustaining medical marijuana system and over turned it using a loophole that basically stated it was Unconstitutional for the people in a democratic republic to participate in the creation of legislation. Members of the republican half of the state legislature went as far as to say "people elect us to decide these things they shouldn't be allowed to ammend the constitution themselves" then passed a backdoor law that instills a medical weed program but rigs the system where it is insanely for profit (theirs) and has rules including "a medical doctor and a pharmacist must be employed by every grower/dispensary, liquid assets in the amount of 2 million$ minimum to participate in running a grow op or a dispensary, and then several state legislatures formed a LLC with "Consulting" in the title that "helps potential growers and distributor operations connect with medical professionals and pharmacists for a fee". (of course).

    Just an example of the rampant crony shit that goes on today in
    American gov. and that's on a state level. Hell, Louisiana is a toxic waste dumping ground because of sell out, self serving "ruling class". Look at the statistics for most common causes of death in that state. There are causes in the top ten that aren't present in any surrounding state. One is bacterial infections of the blood stream; the numbers in cancer are inflated compared to elsewhere as well.

    For decades now people have accepted the behavior of these sell out, self serving, morally and ethically devoid, ghouls; continually ignoring or even actively voting for them and their spoiled offspring heir apparent. They're our judges, our law makers, they run our law enforcement. Modern slavery is alive and well in every state to a degree; enabled through abuse of the work release program and a never ending stream of drug addicts who have given up on our society that has basically devolved to the working class being enslaved to the fat and rich minority, never able to purchase a home or afford to enjoy any luxury in their lives because it's hard enough just to keep everyone in their family alive and fed macaroni from a box.

    People used to buy new cars for a couple grand in 1973 (pulled randomly here is a link:

    https://blog.consumerguide.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/12/Screen-Shot-2 016-12-13-at-10.13.15-AM-742x1024.png

    1973 foreign import prices.. (spoiler: a high end mercedes benz 450 is about ~10 grand, but an Audi or something reasonable is between 2000$ and 3500$) and people will argue "Well, minimum wage was $1.60 back then". Do you know who made mimimum wage? 14 year olds and people who worked at the concession stand at the little league park.

    This is speculation, but from what I gather from relatives and older people who were working during this time, very few adults outside of high school age made minimum wage. Paying people minimum wage for every goddamn entry level job didn't become envogue until the 90s it seems like (perhaps the rich were offsetting the money they blew on cocaine and hookers in the 1980s).

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2020/12/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Black Flag <ACiD Telnet HQ> blackflagbbs.com (21:1/112)
  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to phxl on Tue May 18 16:15:46 2021
    phxl wrote to All <=-

    1973 foreign import prices.. (spoiler: a high end mercedes benz 450 is about ~10 grand, but an Audi or something reasonable is between 2000$
    and 3500$) and people will argue "Well, minimum wage was $1.60 back
    then". Do you know who made mimimum wage? 14 year olds and people who worked at the concession stand at the little league park.

    This is speculation, but from what I gather from relatives and older people who were working during this time, very few adults outside of
    high school age made minimum wage. Paying people minimum wage for
    every goddamn entry level job didn't become envogue until the 90s it
    seems like (perhaps the rich were offsetting the money they blew on cocaine and hookers in the 1980s).

    They didn't get minimum wage, but they also didn't make what they would
    now, either. For the same people who cannot afford them now, or think they
    are too expensive now, $2000-$3500 would have been too much/too expensive
    back then.



    ... Computer Hacker wanted. Must have own axe.
    --- MultiMail
    * Origin: Possum Lodge South * possumso.fsxnet.nz:7636/SSH:2122 (21:4/134)
  • From Adept@21:2/108 to phxl on Wed May 19 07:12:44 2021
    need of examples, see the news this past week. In Mississippi the
    ruling class just undermined 75% of the voting base that voted for a

    Just FYI, it's against network rules to talk politics (take a look at the
    info pack that gets released frequently, and should be on all FSXnet BBSs).

    Thankfully, it doesn't seem like anything is getting heated, here, but I tend to figure it's nice to remind ourselves to avoid politics and religion, since they're restricted topics, here.

    Largely because of how heated they tend to get. But, personally, I also like the rule because I mentally start debating everything, and I'd rather not have to bother suppressing that urge.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Storm BBS (21:2/108)
  • From phxl@21:1/112 to All on Thu May 20 13:10:52 2021
    They didn't get minimum wage, but they also didn't make what they would now, either. For the same people who cannot afford them now, or think theyare too expensive now, $2000-$3500 would have been too much/too expensiveback then.

    Surely there were people selling used vehicles back then like now?? So if todays equivalent is paying 22,000$ for a new low end vehicle.. and back then was like $2000 well.. hrm.. $700 bucks surely could have got you a nice ride.. hell they probably had $100 beater cars you could drive around uninsured and HALF-drunk and nobody batted an eye; pretty much right? i mean.. 50 years ago?

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2020/12/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Black Flag <ACiD Telnet HQ> blackflagbbs.com (21:1/112)
  • From phxl@21:1/112 to All on Thu May 20 13:12:34 2021
    need of examples, see the news this past week. In Mississippi the ruling class just undermined 75% of the voting base that voted for a

    Just FYI, it's against network rules to talk politics (take a look at the info pack that gets released frequently, and should be on all FSXnet
    BBSs)

    I apologize and respect the rule, thank you.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2020/12/04 (Windows/32)
    * Origin: Black Flag <ACiD Telnet HQ> blackflagbbs.com (21:1/112)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to phxl on Thu May 20 15:58:22 2021
    Re: to mask or not to mask, again
    By: phxl to All on Thu May 20 2021 01:10 pm

    They didn't get minimum wage, but they also didn't make what they would now, either. For t
    same people who cannot afford them now, or think theyare too expensive now, $2000-$3500 wou
    have been too much/too expensiveback then.

    Surely there were people selling used vehicles back then like now?? So if todays equivalent is
    paying 22,000$ for a new low end vehicle.. and back then was like $2000 well.. hrm.. $700 bucks
    surely could have got you a nice ride.. hell they probably had $100 beater cars you could drive
    around uninsured and HALF-drunk and nobody batted an eye; pretty much right? i mean.. 50 years a

    We had a "nice" dictatorship 50 years ago in Spain. People was getting paid wages regulated by
    state controlled unions - which were supposedly fair - but if you complained about the General's
    haircut you disappeared mysteriously. Not to mention that what you could buy with a fair wage was
    not that great at the time.

    So, things are not going great but I don't feel like going back in time 50 years either.

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