• Vinyl vs CD

    From The Millionaire@21:1/183 to All on Mon Feb 7 12:50:06 2022
    I know a lot of audiophiles out there will agree or disagree on this subject easily.

    $ The Millionaire $
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  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to The Millionaire on Mon Feb 7 16:10:48 2022
    On 07 Feb 22 12:50:06, The Millionaire said the following to All:

    I know a lot of audiophiles out there will agree or disagree on this subjec easily.

    I prefer vinyl, and cassettes. But I'm not an anti-CD masochist.

    Atreyu

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  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to The Millionaire on Mon Feb 7 17:11:00 2022
    The Millionaire wrote to All <=-

    I know a lot of audiophiles out there will agree or disagree on
    this subject easily.

    Tape.



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  • From Zip@21:1/202 to The Millionaire on Tue Feb 8 09:26:48 2022
    Hello The Millionaire!

    On 07 Feb 2022, The Millionaire said the following...
    I know a lot of audiophiles out there will agree or disagree on this subject easily.

    :-D

    I prefer CD as the medium doesn't easily wear out, and there's lots of CD players which sound good enough for me. As long as the recording and mixing is good...

    Approximately 40 years after its introduction I still think the CD can be considered a good reference. A sign of good thinking and design by those involved in that.

    Best regards
    Zip

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  • From Tiny@21:1/222 to The Millionaire on Tue Feb 8 05:25:00 2022
    The Millionaire wrote to All <=-

    I know a lot of audiophiles out there will agree or disagree on this subject easily.

    Vinyl get's my vote. However I will say for the last 15 years it's been
    just MP3 for us.

    Shawn

    ... You know you're getting old when the candles cost more than the cake.

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  • From Greenlfc@21:2/150 to The Millionaire on Tue Feb 8 05:44:56 2022
    On 07 Feb 2022, The Millionaire said the following...

    I know a lot of audiophiles out there will agree or disagree on this subject easily.

    My opinion on this has more to do with the permanence of the media. Destroying a vinyl record completely, by accident, is relatively difficult. In 100 years, my vinyl will still be playable; CDs are already succumbing to bit rot and other problems.

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  • From Orbitman@21:2/131 to The Millionaire on Tue Feb 8 11:41:34 2022
    I grew up with vinyl and 8-track...then cassette, CD and minidisc. They're
    all good and have their pros and cons. I love the minidisc format and hate
    that it never took off on this side of the world. If the timing had been different and the RIAA hadn't been such a-holes, MD would've blown cassette away and become the dominant portable format.

    I have a Sony MDS-JE520 minidisc deck and the older (1993 vintage) Sony MZ-E2 portable MD player. Both work perfectly and I still use them to this day.

    ----
    Thanks!
    Orbitman (Allen)
    Orbit BBS, Opp, AL USA
    orbitbbs.ddns.net:7210

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  • From Oli@21:3/102 to The Millionaire on Tue Feb 8 20:02:12 2022
    The wrote (2022-02-07):

    I know a lot of audiophiles out there will agree or disagree on this subject easily.

    Both are better than MP3.

    In theory an unscratched CD should be better than vinyl. In reality there are CDs with worse mastering and less dynamic range then the vinyl. But this has more to do with the process(ing) than the medium itself.

    I prefer the digital audio file with lossless compression on hard disc. Doesn't need (much) space, cannot be scratched, but need backups.

    Anyway, who cares about vinyl vs CD when we have music streaming services? ;)

    Physical media is very much retro.

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  • From keima@21:1/126 to The Millionaire on Wed Feb 9 13:48:46 2022
    I prefer Vinyl because it really slows me down while listening to the music.
    I have found that when the format gets too easy to use or to jump around in I tend to listen but not really hear the music.

    Something therapeutic about the process of taking the album out of the
    cover, placing it, dusting it, placing the arm down and just sitting and listening, taking a look at the cover art/picture every once in a while.
    Takes me back to my teen years.

    Keima

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  • From keima@21:1/126 to Orbitman on Wed Feb 9 13:52:20 2022
    Yup, mini disc was huge here in Japan during the 90s. It is a great format
    and was the logical next step after cassette, or atleast it was here.

    Keima

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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to The Millionaire on Wed Feb 9 14:07:00 2022
    On 02-07-22 12:50, The Millionaire wrote to All <=-

    I know a lot of audiophiles out there will agree or disagree on this subject easily.

    My preference is uncompressed or lossless compressed digital audio. I find it sounds cleaner. Vinyl is quite good, but I am relatively sensitive to the imperfections of the medium (relatively high IMD and hiss and rumble, among other issues).

    The audio standard for CDs is rather old nowadays, and the relatively low sample rate is a possible reason why some don't like CD audio.

    One thing I think many will agree on is that lossy compression does audibly degrade audio - there's artifacts of lossy compression that really stand out on certain tracks.


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  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to keima on Wed Feb 9 14:10:00 2022
    On 02-09-22 13:52, keima wrote to Orbitman <=-

    Yup, mini disc was huge here in Japan during the 90s. It is a great
    format and was the logical next step after cassette, or atleast it was here.

    Never took off here, though it did have a lot of promise.


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  • From Mewcenary@21:1/189 to keima on Wed Feb 9 08:58:00 2022
    keima wrote to Orbitman <=-

    Yup, mini disc was huge here in Japan during the 90s. It is a great
    format and was the logical next step after cassette, or atleast it was here.

    I had one of the cute portable Sony players when at university. Had great fun making my own compilations of music onto it.

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  • From Oli@21:3/102 to keima on Wed Feb 9 15:05:56 2022
    keima wrote (2022-02-09):

    Yup, mini disc was huge here in Japan during the 90s. It is a great format and was the logical next step after cassette, or atleast it was here.

    IMHO it wasn't that great. Worse sound quality than CD or DAT (because it was lossy). The stupid copy-protection and the NetMD / USB transfer limitations were insane. It was only a bridge technology and was killed by MP3 and flash memory. Until then cassette tapes and Discman were often good enough.

    The MiniDisc discs were cute though and in the early 90s the MiniDisc had a couple of advantages over other formats (for mobile use).

    https://shanedowling.com/consuming-content-like-its-the-90s.html

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  • From Orbitman@21:2/131 to keima on Thu Feb 10 12:21:46 2022
    On 09 Feb 2022, keima said the following...

    Yup, mini disc was huge here in Japan during the 90s. It is a great
    format and was the logical next step after cassette, or atleast it was here.

    Keima

    I wish it had taken off here in the US. I found it in 1998 and have used it since then...although not heavily. I've recently become "infatuated" with it again and have been buying equipment and discs.

    ----
    Thanks!
    Orbitman (Allen)
    Orbit BBS, Opp, AL USA
    orbitbbs.ddns.net:7210

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  • From Orbitman@21:2/131 to Mewcenary on Thu Feb 10 12:24:12 2022
    On 09 Feb 2022, Mewcenary said the following...

    I had one of the cute portable Sony players when at university. Had
    great fun making my own compilations of music onto it.


    Nothing like a "mix tape" to take you back! :D I still have a couple of compilations on minidisc I made in '98.

    ----
    Thanks!
    Orbitman (Allen)
    Orbit BBS, Opp, AL USA
    orbitbbs.ddns.net:7210

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  • From Orbitman@21:2/131 to Oli on Thu Feb 10 12:36:06 2022
    On 09 Feb 2022, Oli said the following...

    IMHO it wasn't that great. Worse sound quality than CD or DAT (because
    it was lossy). The stupid copy-protection and the NetMD / USB transfer limitations were insane. It was only a bridge technology and was killed
    by MP3 and flash memory. Until then cassette tapes and Discman were
    often good enough.

    I'll say this. It was way better than cassette. Also, I'll disagree with the "worse sound quality than CD". I've listened to both many times over the
    years and if the source is clean, I cannot tell a difference.

    It also depends on how your record to the MD. I was not a user of NetMD, I always record through the optical or analog interface...in real time. That's how you get the best sound and no worries about copy protection. I'm an old
    guy so recording to tape or MD in real time is not a problem for me.

    I have many CDs but would prefer MD over CD, mostly due to the fact the disc
    is inside the cartridge and not as easily damaged AND the MD will hold as
    much music as a standard CD (80 mins)...more if you use LP2.

    I've never been a fan of MP3 or the players. They sound okay and have their purpose.

    To each his/her own ;)

    ----
    Thanks!
    Orbitman (Allen)
    Orbit BBS, Opp, AL USA
    orbitbbs.ddns.net:7210

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  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Orbitman on Thu Feb 10 14:00:24 2022
    On 10 Feb 22 12:21:46, Orbitman said the following to Keima:

    I wish it had taken off here in the US. I found it in 1998 and have used it since then...although not heavily. I've recently become "infatuated" with i again and have been buying equipment and discs.

    I was a huge fan of Minidisc for a time as well... but preferred cassette for any mixes.

    Atreyu

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  • From Zip@21:1/202 to Orbitman on Thu Feb 10 20:21:24 2022
    Hello Orbitman!

    On 10 Feb 2022, Orbitman said the following...
    Nothing like a "mix tape" to take you back! :D I still have a couple of compilations on minidisc I made in '98.

    I used to have an MD deck (Pioneer MJ-D707) in the late 90s/early 00s, but later sold it off as I had mostly switched to MP3s. I really liked the format though, and despite it being lossy, I think it sounded excellent. Definitely a good replacement for cassettes -- easy to split, combine and delete tracks to make the perfect mix tape.

    Now, 20 years later, I've started to collect some refurbished (and some new) Hi-Fi separates for a future stack (my current apartment sadly isn't ideal for setting this up). Among those, a Sony MDS-JE520 and a Sony MDS-JB920, along with a bunch of brand new blanks... :-D

    Best regards
    Zip

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  • From Mewcenary@21:1/189 to Orbitman on Thu Feb 10 19:59:16 2022
    Re: Re: Vinyl vs CD
    By: Orbitman to Mewcenary on Thu Feb 10 2022 12:24 pm

    Nothing like a "mix tape" to take you back! :D I still have a couple of compilations on minidisc I made in '98.

    Then it was on to the heady heights of a Creative Zen...

    Mewcenary.
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  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Mewcenary on Thu Feb 10 16:22:48 2022
    On 10 Feb 22 19:59:16, Mewcenary said the following to Orbitman:

    Nothing like a "mix tape" to take you back! :D I still have a couple of compilations on minidisc I made in '98.

    Then it was on to the heady heights of a Creative Zen...

    Creative ZEN?!? Mannnnnn... thats a blast from the past...

    Atreyu

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  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Greenlfc on Sun Feb 13 15:21:00 2022
    Hello Greenlfc!

    ** On Tuesday 08.02.22 - 05:44, Greenlfc wrote to The Millionaire:

    My opinion on this has more to do with the permanence of
    the media. Destroying a vinyl record completely, by
    accident, is relatively difficult. In 100 years, my vinyl
    will still be playable; CDs are already succumbing to bit
    rot and other problems.

    But.. will the rubberbands for the turntables and will the
    cartridges/needles still be around after so many years? :/


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  • From Orbitman@21:2/131 to Zip on Mon Feb 14 14:04:36 2022
    On 10 Feb 2022, Zip said the following...

    Now, 20 years later, I've started to collect some refurbished (and some new) Hi-Fi separates for a future stack (my current apartment sadly
    isn't ideal for setting this up). Among those, a Sony MDS-JE520 and a
    Sony MDS-JB920, along with a bunch of brand new blanks... :-D

    Sounds like you've got a good start on your stack!

    I'm shopping around for a "newer" portable to go along with my MZ-E2.

    ----
    Thanks!
    Orbitman (Allen)
    Orbit BBS, Opp, AL USA
    orbitbbs.ddns.net:7210

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  • From Orbitman@21:2/131 to Mewcenary on Mon Feb 14 14:05:50 2022
    On 10 Feb 2022, Mewcenary said the following...

    Then it was on to the heady heights of a Creative Zen... e>

    Wow...I think I still have a Creative mp3 player somewhere around here.

    ----
    Thanks!
    Orbitman (Allen)
    Orbit BBS, Opp, AL USA
    orbitbbs.ddns.net:7210

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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to The Millionaire on Mon Feb 14 16:15:58 2022
    Re: Vinyl vs CD
    By: The Millionaire to All on Mon Feb 07 2022 12:50 pm

    I know a lot of audiophiles out there will agree or disagree on this subject easily.

    I'd prefer CDs. I think it just sounds cleaner (no hissing or pops or crackles as when playing a record). And as far as the technology, digital audio recording (such as CDs) has the capability of exactly reproducing the audio every time without wearing out so easily.

    And when CDs came out, I heard CDs should technically be able to last hundreds of years. Some people say they've experienced bit rot and have gone bad over the years, but I'd have to wonder how they've been stored. Some of my oldest CDs and DVDs were ones I bought in the 90s and early 2000s and they have always played without any problems. I've tended to store them indoors on a shelf though, and lately, they've been in closets. If you store optical media near a window or in another place where they'll get sunlight for extended periods of time, or in very musty/humdi conditions, I coudl see how their lifespan would be reduced.

    Nightfox
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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Greenlfc on Mon Feb 14 16:17:18 2022
    Re: Re: Vinyl vs CD
    By: Greenlfc to The Millionaire on Tue Feb 08 2022 05:44 am

    My opinion on this has more to do with the permanence of the media. Destroying a vinyl record completely, by accident, is relatively difficult. In 100 years, my vinyl will still be playable; CDs are already succumbing to bit rot and other problems.

    I've heard of bit rot but haven't experienced it myself. Some of my oldest CDs and DVDs were ones I bought in the 90s and early 2000s, and they still play without any problems. I suspect the way people store media impacts its lifespan.

    Nightfox
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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Oli on Mon Feb 14 16:19:36 2022
    Re: Vinyl vs CD
    By: Oli to The Millionaire on Tue Feb 08 2022 08:02 pm

    Anyway, who cares about vinyl vs CD when we have music streaming services? ;)

    Physical media is very much retro.

    You can't always rely on streaming services. Streaming services often change their content, removing media that you may have wanted to listen to. Also, especially for music, you might not always be in a location where a good internet connection is available. Sometimes I drive through areas where I get little or no cell signal. I've never really bothered much with listening to streaming services while I'm out & about traveling & such.

    Nightfox
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  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 22:27:50 2022
    I'd prefer CDs. I think it just sounds cleaner (no hissing or pops or crackles as when playing a record). And as far as the technology,
    digital audio recording (such as CDs) has the capability of exactly reproducing the audio every time without wearing out so easily.

    And when CDs came out, I heard CDs should technically be able to last hundreds of years. Some people say they've experienced bit rot and have gone bad over the years, but I'd have to wonder how they've been stored. Some of my oldest CDs and DVDs were ones I bought in the 90s and early 2000s and they have always played without any problems. I've tended to store them indoors on a shelf though, and lately, they've been in
    closets. If you store optical media near a window or in another place where they'll get sunlight for extended periods of time, or in very musty/humdi conditions, I coudl see how their lifespan would be reduced.

    Nightfox


    I've yet to see a CD go bad that I've purchased, and the oldest I have is from 1996. Even the CD-ROM's I've burned, going back to 2001 work. The only ones that eventually failed where the ones on cheap media, and a few from a faulty spindle which is obviously a manufacturing defect.

    CD's are best stored in a cool, dry area, and stored on their side I believe.

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  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to boraxman on Tue Feb 15 03:58:56 2022
    Re: Re: Vinyl vs CD
    By: boraxman to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 10:27 pm

    I've yet to see a CD go bad that I've purchased, and the oldest I have is fr 1996. Even the CD-ROM's I've burned, going back to 2001 work. The only one that eventually failed where the ones on cheap media, and a few from a fault spindle which is obviously a manufacturing defect.

    CD's are best stored in a cool, dry area, and stored on their side I believe

    CDs are pretty survivable if stored that way. DVDs are more prone to issues for some reason.

    At least, I have had more issues with faulty DVDs. Usually, commercial DVDs that come damaged from the store right away. I don't remember any DVD comming in a good state and then degreading off.

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  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to boraxman on Tue Feb 15 09:20:44 2022
    Re: Re: Vinyl vs CD
    By: boraxman to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 10:27 pm

    I've yet to see a CD go bad that I've purchased, and the oldest I have is from 1996. Even the CD-ROM's I've burned, going back to 2001 work. The only ones that eventually failed where the ones on cheap media, and a few from a faulty spindle which is obviously a manufacturing defect.

    I think I still have a couple music CDs that I got in 1992. They still worked the last time I played/ripped them, but it has been a while. I also have a CD-R I burned in 2000 (my original BBS backup) and I was still able to read it a couple years ago.

    CD's are best stored in a cool, dry area, and stored on their side I believe.

    Yeah, I tend to store mine in a fairly cool dry area. I usually have mine on a shelf, though for a while I've had my CDs packed in boxes due to moving and have just left them in the boxes.

    Nightfox
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  • From Orbitman@21:2/131 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 13:02:52 2022
    On 15 Feb 2022, Nightfox said the following...

    I think I still have a couple music CDs that I got in 1992. They still worked the last time I played/ripped them, but it has been a while. I also have a CD-R I burned in 2000 (my original BBS backup) and I was
    still able to read it a couple years ago.

    I have CDs from the mid 80s and they still play fine. I have run across the occasional CD I burned many years ago that would not play. Most likely due to cheap CD-R blanks.

    I have also had several DVD movies I copied over the last 20 years that no longer play. Those were on good DVD-R blanks.

    Since CD-Rs and DVD-Rs use dye based tech, they don't last forever as the dye will degrade over time.


    CD's are best stored in a cool, dry area, and stored on their side I believe.

    All my CDs and DVDs are stored upright and in a cool, dry place.

    ----
    Thanks!
    Orbitman (Allen)
    Orbit BBS, Opp, AL USA
    orbitbbs.ddns.net:7210

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  • From Greenlfc@21:2/150 to Ogg on Thu Feb 17 06:31:44 2022
    On 13 Feb 2022, Ogg said the following...

    But.. will the rubberbands for the turntables and will the cartridges/needles still be around after so many years? :/

    Well, new belts are still manufactured, and direct drive turntables exist. While styluses wear over time, there's still a good stock and new production in 2022.

    At the end of the day, though, I'd see recreating the early 1900s technology of turntables to be somewhat easier than recreating something that can play MP3s. I've lost enough data over time that I'm paranoid of anything digital just *poof* disappearing (and I'm in IT, not just a user). Heck, when I was a kid, I played a record by gluing a pushpin onto the end of a cone made of a rolled up manila folder and spinning the turntable by hand.

    Even if a record is *broken*, you could still stand a chance of recovering the data from it, albeit difficultly.

    Permanence in an age of digital ephemera is an invaluable attribute.

    GreenLFC º e> greenleaderfanclub@protonmail.com
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  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Greenlfc on Sun Feb 20 14:17:00 2022
    Hello Greenlfc!

    ** On Thursday 17.02.22 - 06:31, Greenlfc wrote to Ogg:

    But.. will the rubberbands for the turntables and will the
    cartridges/needles still be around after so many years? :/

    Well, new belts are still manufactured, and direct drive turntables exist.
    While styluses wear over time, there's still a good stock and new production in 2022.

    That is reassuring, and somewhat astonishing actually. With LPs
    (and vinyl in general) being such a much smaller market than
    streaming services, I have to wonder what the justification
    might be for companies to continue to invest in producing the
    auxiliary supplies (cartridges/needles/tonearms/belts, etc) for
    the turntable crowd.

    I think it was just less than 5 years ago when a fire destroyed
    a major factory that produced the special discs that are used
    for mastering. At that point, there were only 2 such remaining
    plants in the world. The vinyl pressing plants were doomed -
    or something like that.

    At the end of the day, though, I'd see recreating the early 1900s technology of turntables to be somewhat easier than recreating something that can play MP3s.

    Did you mean to say CDs instead of MP3s? "Playing" mp3s is
    just a software process. Playing CDs might require far too
    many integrated circuits and electronics.


    I've lost enough data over time that I'm paranoid of
    anything digital just *poof* disappearing (and I'm in IT, not just a
    user). Heck, when I was a kid, I played a record by gluing a pushpin onto the end of a cone made of a rolled up manila folder and spinning the turntable by hand.

    I dabbled in pressing a pin into the grooves of a record as it
    spun around a platter and listening to something "quietly" (in
    the same room where other people wanted to watch TV) since I
    didn't have a set of headphones yet. :( It didn't occur to
    me (then as a 7-8 yr old) to create something akin to a cone
    for listening. I could still hear "something". Feeling the
    vibes was kinda cool too.


    Even if a record is *broken*, you could still stand a chance of recovering the data from it, albeit difficultly.

    Have you heard of the project that was poised to digitize LPs
    by passing a laser around the grooves?

    Permanence in an age of digital ephemera is an invaluable
    attribute.

    I'd say longetivity over permanence. Permanence is valueless
    at one's grave. :/


    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Ogg on Sun Feb 20 13:38:36 2022
    On 20 Feb 2022, Ogg said the following...
    But.. will the rubberbands for the turntables and will the
    cartridges/needles still be around after so many years? :/
    Well, new belts are still manufactured, and direct drive turntables ex
    While styluses wear over time, there's still a good stock and new production in 2022.
    [...]

    New turntables, cartridges, etc., are quite difficult to find in the home entertainment market these days. However, the DJ market tends to have a
    pretty good selection of new equipment.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Jeff on Sun Feb 20 16:49:00 2022
    Hello Jeff!

    ** On Sunday 20.02.22 - 13:38, Jeff wrote to Ogg:

    New turntables, cartridges, etc., are quite difficult to
    find in the home entertainment market these days. However,
    the DJ market tends to have a pretty good selection of new
    equipment.

    I'm surprised that DJs would even bother with tuntables.
    Wouldn't it be easier to cue up tunes from digital files much
    like how radio station seem to operate now?


    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to Ogg on Sun Feb 20 16:09:06 2022
    On 20 Feb 2022, Ogg said the following...
    New turntables, cartridges, etc., are quite difficult to
    find in the home entertainment market these days. However,
    the DJ market tends to have a pretty good selection of new
    equipment.

    I'm surprised that DJs would even bother with tuntables.
    Wouldn't it be easier to cue up tunes from digital files much
    like how radio station seem to operate now?

    I would think so, too. I'm not really into the DJ scene, but have seen turntables, cartridges, etc., in the PA/Mixer/Live-Audio section of the Guitar Center here.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Greenlfc@21:2/150 to Ogg on Mon Feb 21 06:39:40 2022
    On 20 Feb 2022, Ogg said the following...

    Hello Greenlfc!

    While styluses wear over time, there's still a good stock and new production in 2022.

    That is reassuring, and somewhat astonishing actually. With LPs
    (and vinyl in general) being such a much smaller market than
    streaming services, I have to wonder what the justification
    might be for companies to continue to invest in producing the
    auxiliary supplies (cartridges/needles/tonearms/belts, etc) for
    the turntable crowd.

    For the past, I think it's two years, new vinyl has outsold CD. There's money to be made on folks who will pay $25 for a disc versus, at best, $1/track for the *good* songs on the album. It's a collectibles market, but it does something useful versus those Funko Pops my daughter buys :D.

    At the end of the day, though, I'd see recreating the early 1900s Og> G> technology of turntables to be somewhat easier than recreating somethi Og> G> that can play MP3s. Og>

    Did you mean to say CDs instead of MP3s? "Playing" mp3s is
    just a software process. Playing CDs might require far too
    many integrated circuits and electronics.

    No, I did mean to say MP3s, although CD playing technology is another difficult one to create without existing tooling. Precision lasers are not something to cook up in your back yard (precision is relative of course).

    I think we're looking at it through two different lenses. I'm looking at it as, "the world's manufacturing capability has been crippled by war/famine/everyone who knows how to maintain things dying out" and trying to rebuild. I think you're looking at it from the perspective of everything carrying on and continuing to progress to where future generations will have trouble reading Edison cylinders, for example, but anything that's already been digitized is just copied on and on forever.


    Even if a record is *broken*, you could still stand a chance of recove the data from it, albeit difficultly.

    Have you heard of the project that was poised to digitize LPs
    by passing a laser around the grooves?

    Indeed, it's a neat idea.

    Permanence in an age of digital ephemera is an invaluable
    attribute.

    I'd say longetivity over permanence. Permanence is valueless
    at one's grave. :/

    No matter what one's particular views are of the nature of existence, we all want to preserve knowledge to keep our posterity from making the same mistakes and helping them know their origins. Who knows, if we're still here in 2000 years, maybe my vinyl collection will be like the Dead Sea Scrolls :).

    GreenLFC º e> greenleaderfanclub@protonmail.com
    Infosec / Ham / Retro º masto> GLFC@mstdn.starnix.network
    Avoids Politics on BBS º gem> gemini.greenleader.xyz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Oli@21:3/102 to Ogg on Wed Feb 23 09:58:48 2022
    Ogg wrote (2022-02-20):

    New turntables, cartridges, etc., are quite difficult to
    find in the home entertainment market these days. However,
    the DJ market tends to have a pretty good selection of new
    equipment.

    I'm surprised that DJs would even bother with tuntables.

    For a long time vinyl and turntables was the far superior interface for doing DJ stuff, like getting to songs in sync, scratching. It's also the better performance for the audience (if you like that kind of performance).

    Wouldn't it be easier to cue up tunes from digital files much
    like how radio station seem to operate now?

    Yes and it's not that uncommon. First they were always (maybe different kinds of) DJs that used digital technology, like CD, PC, Laptop, iPod and then there are digital turntable-like interfaces for quite some time or vinyl records that don't play songs, but a time code for processing by the DJ software.

    Still, vinyl and turntable is the most direct interface and experience. But all these vinyl records are expensive and heavy to carry them around.

    ---
    * Origin: They're made out of meta (21:3/102)
  • From Oli@21:3/102 to Ogg on Wed Feb 23 10:18:58 2022
    Ogg wrote (2022-02-20):

    Even if a record is *broken*, you could still stand a chance of
    recovering the data from it, albeit difficultly.

    Have you heard of the project that was poised to digitize LPs
    by passing a laser around the grooves?

    I remember the laser turntable featured in hifi magazines in the 80s. Too bad there was already a much better and much cheaper laser based technology available ;)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_turntable

    Permanence in an age of digital ephemera is an invaluable
    attribute.

    I'd say longetivity over permanence. Permanence is valueless
    at one's grave. :/

    Analogue has neither longevity nor permanence. How many master records or film disappeared or degraded and decades later even very expensive restoration efforts don't bring the original back (quality still worse, content missing).

    For the home collection I agree that the old records will often survive longer than the MP3s on hard disks and in the cloud (or yourself).

    ---
    * Origin: They're made out of meta (21:3/102)
  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Oli on Wed Feb 23 07:55:00 2022
    Hello Oli!

    ** On Wednesday 23.02.22 - 10:18, Oli wrote to Ogg:


    Have you heard of the project that was poised to digitize
    LPs by passing a laser around the grooves?

    I remember the laser turntable featured in hifi magazines in the 80s. Too bad there was already a much better and much cheaper laser based
    technology available ;)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_turntable


    "Although these turntables use laser pickups, the same as
    Compact Disc players, the signal remains in the analog realm
    and is never digitized. "

    It is actually a shame that the system wouldn't digitize while
    it had the chance!


    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Ogg on Wed Feb 23 08:06:42 2022
    On 23 Feb 22 07:55:00, Ogg said the following to Oli:

    "Although these turntables use laser pickups, the same as
    Compact Disc players, the signal remains in the analog realm
    and is never digitized. "

    It is actually a shame that the system wouldn't digitize while
    it had the chance!

    From what I understood about this, the problem was that tiny dust particles which would normally be pushed/plowed away by a stylus were treated as imperfections by that pickup laser.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Ogg on Wed Feb 23 09:37:58 2022
    Re: Vinyl vs CD
    By: Ogg to Greenlfc on Sun Feb 20 2022 02:17 pm

    That is reassuring, and somewhat astonishing actually. With LPs
    (and vinyl in general) being such a much smaller market than
    streaming services, I have to wonder what the justification
    might be for companies to continue to invest in producing the
    auxiliary supplies (cartridges/needles/tonearms/belts, etc) for
    the turntable crowd.

    I've been wondering about that for a while. I keep hearing about people who have gotten rid of their CDs and DVDs and streaming more, but apparently there is more demand for vinyl records? I don't really get it.

    Have you heard of the project that was poised to digitize LPs
    by passing a laser around the grooves?

    I've seen laser turntables made by one particular company (it seems only one company makes them), and they're quite expensive. Last time I checked, they started around $8,000, I think. I thought the idea was cool, but I also heard that a laser turntable also tends to be more affected by dust & other particles than a traditional turnable would be. A laser turntable will recreate the sound of all the grooves it reads, and dust and other particles will come across as noise, so the record really needs to be clean to work with a laser turntable.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Nightfox on Fri Feb 25 09:20:00 2022
    Hello Nightfox!

    ** On Wednesday 23.02.22 - 09:37, Nightfox wrote to Ogg:

    [...] I have to wonder what the justification might be
    for companies to continue to invest in producing the
    auxiliary supplies (cartridges/needles/tonearms/belts,
    etc) for the turntable crowd.

    I've been wondering about that for a while. I keep hearing
    about people who have gotten rid of their CDs and DVDs and
    streaming more, but apparently there is more demand for
    vinyl records? I don't really get it.

    The world is full of wonders. Maybe its partially a new
    generation that wants the experience. Meanwhile, the quality
    of vinyl has improved (it's heavier). I remember some releases
    out in pewter many years ago. Mannheim Steamroller recordings
    was one of them.


    [...] but I also heard that a laser turntable also tends to
    be more affected by dust & other particles than a
    traditional turnable would be. A laser turntable will
    recreate the sound of all the grooves it reads, and dust
    and other particles will come across as noise, so the
    record really needs to be clean to work with a laser
    turntable.

    You'd think that they could implement a filter to remove the
    obvious spikes. And.. while they are at it, "store" a
    recording of the play - or provide a convenient audio-out to
    acomplish that with aux equipment. Not sure what the
    engineering thought-process was for any of that.

    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Ogg on Fri Feb 25 14:21:48 2022
    Re: Vinyl vs CD
    By: Ogg to Nightfox on Fri Feb 25 2022 09:20 am

    about people who have gotten rid of their CDs and DVDs and
    streaming more, but apparently there is more demand for
    vinyl records? I don't really get it.

    The world is full of wonders. Maybe its partially a new
    generation that wants the experience. Meanwhile, the quality
    of vinyl has improved (it's heavier). I remember some releases
    out in pewter many years ago. Mannheim Steamroller recordings
    was one of them.

    There are still other downsides to vinyl records (which I'm not a fan of): Hiss and other noise is one of them. Also, one thing I've heard is that since vinyl records basically have just one groove spiraling from the outside toward the center of the record, that means as the needle gets toward the center, there is less and less groove passing under the needle for every turn, so higher frequencies aren't represented well toward the center of a record (because the record constantly spins at the same rate). Other formats such as CD and cassette don't have that issue.

    [...] but I also heard that a laser turntable also tends to
    be more affected by dust & other particles than a
    traditional turnable would be. A laser turntable will
    recreate the sound of all the grooves it reads, and dust
    and other particles will come across as noise, so the
    record really needs to be clean to work with a laser
    turntable.

    You'd think that they could implement a filter to remove the
    obvious spikes. And.. while they are at it, "store" a
    recording of the play - or provide a convenient audio-out to
    acomplish that with aux equipment. Not sure what the
    engineering thought-process was for any of that.

    Yeah, I don't know if they have a filter or not. But I think I've heard they have a digital output so you could easily make a digital recording of a vinyl record with a laser turntable.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 16:03:00 2022
    On 02-25-22 14:21, Nightfox wrote to Ogg <=-

    There are still other downsides to vinyl records (which I'm not a fan
    of): Hiss and other noise is one of them. Also, one thing I've heard
    is that since vinyl records basically have just one groove spiraling
    from the outside toward the center of the record, that means as the
    needle gets toward the center, there is less and less groove passing
    under the needle for every turn, so higher frequencies aren't
    represented well toward the center of a record (because the record constantly spins at the same rate). Other formats such as CD and
    cassette don't have that issue.

    Not to mention the relatively high levels of distortion, especially IMD in the recorded audio, compared to CD - I remember reading about the first CD players, which had performance specs and measurements more comparable to amplifiers (which by the 1980s had very impressive specs), rather than other recorded media such as LP, cassette and reel to reel tape.


    ... If(crash){grab_ankles();kiss_butt_goodbye();}
    === MultiMail/Win v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From dotslash@21:2/152 to All on Tue Mar 1 02:15:32 2022
    Hi Ogg,

    On 20/02/2022 16:49, Ogg wrote:
    Hello Jeff!

    ** On Sunday 20.02.22 - 13:38, Jeff wrote to Ogg:

    J> New turntables, cartridges, etc., are quite difficult to
    J> find in the home entertainment market these days. However,
    J> the DJ market tends to have a pretty good selection of new
    J> equipment.

    I'm surprised that DJs would even bother with tuntables.
    Wouldn't it be easier to cue up tunes from digital files much
    like how radio station seem to operate now?

    Yes, digital files and midi interfaces (complete with little turntables
    you can "scratch" with) are all the rage, but some people prefer the old
    ways. Some young DJ's here in the UK have discovered the old ways with
    vinyl and are running with it. I think it's awesome to see. :-)

    --
    Cheerio,
    Jan Henkins

    --- Mystic BBS/NNTP v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: UnderZaNet BBS (21:2/152)
  • From Ogg@21:4/106.21 to Atreyu on Tue Mar 1 08:55:00 2022
    Hello Atreyu!

    ** On Wednesday 23.02.22 - 08:06, Atreyu wrote to Ogg:

    It is actually a shame that the system wouldn't digitize while
    it had the chance!

    From what I understood about this, the problem was that
    tiny dust particles which would normally be pushed/plowed
    away by a stylus were treated as imperfections by that
    pickup laser.

    Right.. so all the more reason to take advantage of recording
    the conversion while the disc is at its cleanest and fresh out
    of packaging, I'd say.

    I wonder if there are any audio samples from those scans and
    comparisons available for listening.

    Anyway.. Now the catalog of material that is NOT already
    digitized by enterprising projects like Tidal and Spotify, make
    the process moot, and much less expensive for the end user.
    I'm surprised at how far back Spotify's catalog will reach.

    It seems that the laser LP player arrived a bit too late.


    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: (} Pointy McPointFace (21:4/106.21)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Ogg on Tue Mar 1 10:53:50 2022
    On 01 Mar 22 08:55:00, Ogg said the following to Atreyu:

    Anyway.. Now the catalog of material that is NOT already
    digitized by enterprising projects like Tidal and Spotify, make
    the process moot, and much less expensive for the end user.
    I'm surprised at how far back Spotify's catalog will reach.

    It seems that the laser LP player arrived a bit too late.

    Maybe. For me, I'm a casual audiophile... I think. I didn't spend thousands of dollars on equipment but I did spend enough over the years for that immersive experience of enjoying vinyl, tapes and CD's that sound good "to me".

    I'm in it more for the music than I am of the tech of how that music is delivered. Not a fan of or use any streaming services except Sirius XM.

    I still record mixtapes - actual cassettes, for my car, which probably says a lot although lately my recordings are from XM as I refuse to pay for a second subscription.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to Ogg on Fri Mar 4 20:24:00 2022
    On 03-01-22 08:55, Ogg wrote to Atreyu <=-

    Anyway.. Now the catalog of material that is NOT already
    digitized by enterprising projects like Tidal and Spotify, make
    the process moot, and much less expensive for the end user.
    I'm surprised at how far back Spotify's catalog will reach.

    I've still managed to find obscure songs that Spotify doesn't have! ;)


    ... I was gonna clean my room until I got high
    === MultiMail/Win v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)