• Computer operating system of choice?

    From boraxman@21:1/101 to All on Mon Feb 7 19:31:34 2022
    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems people prefer to us.

    I'm guessing that most people here are BBS hobbyists of sometime, but I wonder whether this correlates with a preference for an OS which gives you more power/flexibility, or is just practicality of day to day use important.

    I'm a Linux user myself, preferring control over my machine, and simpler 'text based' ways to do things. Freedom is another aspect. The simple text-based, responsive UI nature of posting here on fsxNet kind of fits well with the way I like to do things.

    I'm kind of thinking that people who like the Windows/Mac OS way of doing things would prefer a more graphical approach, but my assumptions may be wrong.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Joacim Melin@21:2/130 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 10:01:50 2022
    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating
    Systems people prefer to us.

    I'm guessing that most people here are BBS hobbyists of sometime, but
    I wonder whether this correlates with a preference for an OS which
    gives you more power/flexibility, or is just practicality of day to
    day use important.

    I'm a Linux user myself, preferring control over my machine, and
    simpler 'text based' ways to do things. Freedom is another aspect.
    The simple text-based, responsive UI nature of posting here on fsxNet
    kind of fits well with the way I like to do things.

    I'm kind of thinking that people who like the Windows/Mac OS way of
    doing things would prefer a more graphical approach, but my
    assumptions may be wrong.

    I use MacOS because I like it when shit works. I don't like Windows, and I really like Linux but when using Linux as a desktop operating system it's the little things that matter and here I still feel that Linux can't really compete with MacOS. It's like making sure copy-paste actually work everywhere, having software and software distribution that actually works. As of now, we have several ways of installing software, tons of different distributions, several graphical user interfaces (Gnome, KDE, etc) which is a force to be reckoned with but also present a lot of problems for the end users.

    Let's say I install Fedora (my personal distro of choice), and then I want to install Skype. This is not in the software center application until I install some other repo (Flatpack, for example). Why isn't that enabled from the start?

    Maybe Linux would benifit from a package installer like ones available on MacOS and Windows - download a file and click on it to install it.

    I spend a lot of time in the terminal, logged into several Linux servers where I'm a sysadmin ($dayjob) and I like to do it via MacOS where I have a Unix foundation, a great and beautiful UI and great apps.


    --- NiKom v2.6.0
    * Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (21:2/130.0)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 03:17:18 2022
    Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: boraxman to All on Mon Feb 07 2022 07:31 pm

    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems peop prefer to us.


    I use OpenBSD for the most part at this point. It has a nice toolset for building your own packages, applying your own patches in paralel with the official distribution and so on. It has a reputation of being obscure, but the standard tasks (web server, email server, firewalling) are fire-and-forget affairs. OpenBSD has a nice userspace ecosystem which is not easily portable to other systems (meaning that if you want to use the OpenBSD web server, you need OpenBSD).

    I keep a Slackware around for testing too.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Joacim Melin on Mon Feb 7 03:24:32 2022
    Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: Joacim Melin to boraxman on Mon Feb 07 2022 10:01 am

    Let's say I install Fedora (my personal distro of choice), and then I want t install Skype. This is not in the software center application until I instal some other repo (Flatpack, for example). Why isn't that enabled from the sta


    I am of the opinion that installing untrusted binary blobs in a mostly FOSS Operating System. Anyway, Fedora is well supported and afaik there are rpm packages available. In fact I think they have a repository you may add if you want such thing.

    Ubuntu comes with an App Store out of the box too, which interfaces with traditional apt repositories, and also with another packagins systems such as snaps and such.

    I personally find App Stores clunky and much prefer a ports system myself.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Joacim Melin on Mon Feb 7 03:25:46 2022
    Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: Arelor to Joacim Melin on Mon Feb 07 2022 03:24 am

    I am of the opinion that installing untrusted binary blobs in a mostly FOSS Operating System. Anyway, Fedora is well supported and afaik there are rpm

    What happened to that sentence?

    What I meant is that installing untrusted binary blobs in a mostly FOSS Operating System is ruining it a little.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Oli@21:3/102 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 11:12:14 2022
    boraxman wrote (2022-02-07):

    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems people prefer to us.

    They are all kind of frustrating when I think about it. Windows is annoying as hell. MacOS depends on Apple hardware (I used my PC as a Hackintosh, but I guess it's too old now for a recent MacOS). In Linux there are too many distributions (with their own incomplete or partially outdated repositories). Ubuntu was great and went to shit. Gnome was great and is now pissing on every desktop environments that use GTK as a foundation and doesn't want to be Gnome 4. The stuff that makes your Linux booting and running is getting more and more bloated, more complicated and featureful and is forever changing, just because they can ... I haven't tried one of the BSDs on the desktop.

    Other alternative OSes (old or new) are missing important software, like a decent browser. Maybe decent is the wrong word. I mean a browser that can cope with the shitty web of the 2020s. And hardware support is also often a problem.

    Let's wait another 20 years until HaikuOS will be released or Plan 9 usable or OS/2 open sourced an revived or ...

    .... everything rewritten in the language that wants to replace Rust for even more bloat.

    So my preferred OS would be something like a MacOS 8/9 (with a better kernel and less crashing), BeOS, Windows 2000 (with uncluttered and nicer configuration and administration) or a modern OS/2 2.x.

    ---
    * Origin: Birds aren't real (21:3/102)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Joacim Melin on Tue Feb 8 02:01:44 2022
    Linux can't really compete with MacOS. It's like making sure copy-paste actually work everywhere, having software and software distribution that actually works. As of now, we have several ways of installing software, tons of different distributions, several graphical user interfaces
    (Gnome, KDE, etc) which is a force to be reckoned with but also present
    a lot of problems for the end users.


    The problem is that instead of people learning how to use existing solutions properly, they invent another! So people decide that RPM's or DEB's are no good, and create Snap, Flatpak and AppImage. Now we have three more ways!

    We as a society hold this false belief that the solution to a problem is always to invent something new, create some new technology.

    Maybe Linux would benifit from a package installer like ones available
    on MacOS and Windows - download a file and click on it to install it.

    I spend a lot of time in the terminal, logged into several Linux servers where I'm a sysadmin ($dayjob) and I like to do it via MacOS where I
    have a Unix foundation, a great and beautiful UI and great apps.


    Maybe, but then I think that Linux wouldn't be Linux if it became Windows/Mac OS. I used to think it was important that Linux become more appealing, but not anymore. I'd rather keep it as a 'hobby OS'. That is its distinction, that you make the system your own, rather than having it controlled by a central power. For those who wants that polished unified, I'm happy for them to choose MacOS instead.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Oli on Tue Feb 8 02:07:26 2022
    They are all kind of frustrating when I think about it. Windows is annoying as hell. MacOS depends on Apple hardware (I used my PC as a Hackintosh, but I guess it's too old now for a recent MacOS). In Linux there are too many distributions (with their own incomplete or partially outdated repositories). Ubuntu was great and went to shit. Gnome was
    great and is now pissing on every desktop environments that use GTK as a foundation and doesn't want to be Gnome 4. The stuff that makes your
    Linux booting and running is getting more and more bloated, more complicated and featureful and is forever changing, just because they
    can ... I haven't tried one of the BSDs on the desktop.

    Other alternative OSes (old or new) are missing important software, like
    a decent browser. Maybe decent is the wrong word. I mean a browser that can cope with the shitty web of the 2020s. And hardware support is also often a problem.

    Let's wait another 20 years until HaikuOS will be released or Plan 9 usable or OS/2 open sourced an revived or ...

    Yeah, Linux is more complex now than it was 20 years ago when I started. I miss simplicity, when you could comprehend all that was going on. Browsers are too complex for humans to work on now. Part of the reason I like BBS's, because writing a telnet client is still within the realm of possibilities for most coders and small groups.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Jeff@21:1/180 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 08:20:40 2022
    I prefer Linux, but also use Windows, GS OS, and SpartaDOS.

    Jeff.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A46 2020/08/26 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: Cold War Computing BBS (21:1/180)
  • From Greenlfc@21:2/150 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 06:30:40 2022
    Depending on how granular you want to get, there are a few more options you might want to include in your polling (or you might want to have a follow-up), and I think the reasons will be telling.

    For example, I know lots of Mac people who are very competent devops types that like having a supported *nix-like base, where everything (allegedly) "just works" on pretty hardware. Those folks chose Mac for a very different reason than the folks that don't want to worry about little details like where the power button is.

    I also know folks that like and run Linux because they're cheap and it runs better on low-end hardware. They'd rather run Windows, but there's no way they're shelling out that kind of money.

    If you head down the *nix rabbit hole you've got everything from the cheap SOBs, to the hardcore privacy activists, to folks who make a religion over what open source license you use, to the ones paranoid about government tracking. Your PopOS or Mint user is very different from the OpenBSD user.

    To answer your initial inquiry: I use Linux when I have a choice. Qubes is my daily driver since I'm in the "privacy activist" and "paranoid about the gov't" camps. :)

    GreenLFC º e> greenleaderfanclub@protonmail.com
    Infosec / Ham / Retro º masto> greenleaderfanclub@distrotoot
    Avoids Politics on BBS º gem> gemini.greenleader.xyz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Greenlfc@21:2/150 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 06:38:50 2022
    On 08 Feb 2022, boraxman said the following...

    The problem is that instead of people learning how to use existing solutions properly, they invent another! So people decide that RPM's or DEB's are no good, and create Snap, Flatpak and AppImage. Now we have three more ways!

    Cue the obligatory https://xkcd.com/927/

    having it controlled by a central power. For those who wants that polished unified, I'm happy for them to choose MacOS instead.

    See, I disagree with anyone who says MacOS is more polished. I've lived with it as my work computer for the past three years and it's a bloody disaster. *Nothing* works as it should, and the updates system is worse than Microsoft.

    If Microsoft would quit adding trackers, ads, forced Microsoft accounts, and unnecessary features to Windows it would actually be quite compelling. Outside of those items, the last several versions of Win10 have been pretty solid. If I needed to use a proprietary OS, I'd slap Windows Server 2019 on my laptop and call it a day.

    GreenLFC º e> greenleaderfanclub@protonmail.com
    Infosec / Ham / Retro º masto> greenleaderfanclub@distrotoot
    Avoids Politics on BBS º gem> gemini.greenleader.xyz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From DW@21:1/148 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 11:06:00 2022
    For me, it depends on the primary task the machine will be performing, as well as what options are available on that hardware platform.

    I use OSX on my daily driver computer and have quite a few applications specifically for it (OmniGraffle, Affinity Photo, Scrivner, etc...).
    However, I also find I spend a LOT of time in the terminal SSH into servers, writing/modifying code, etc... Nano and I are good friends. :)

    On virtually all of the production servers I run, you'll find Linux of some flavour. These are machines running Apache, FreeRADIUS, MySQL, etc...
    Linux is my GOTO 10 for reliable, stable, fast server requirments.
    99% of the time headless and CLI only via SSH.

    If I was married to a Windows networked environment, I'd probably be running Windows Server for AD intigration, etc... but I'm lucky enough to not be. :)

    Any electornics projects that I build using a Raspberry Pi for will of course also be running Linux.

    I do run Windows for my BBS machine, simply and only because I run a DOS based 16bit BBS (RemoteAccess) and use the awesome NetFOSS to get telnet connectivity.

    As far as CISCO appliances, I'll take CiscoIOS over their GUIs anyday of the week. :)

    Take care
    Aaron/DW
    Dark Systems BBS



    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems people prefer to us.

    I'm guessing that most people here are BBS hobbyists of sometime, but I wonder whether this correlates with a preference for an OS which gives
    you more power/flexibility, or is just practicality of day to day use important.

    I'm a Linux user myself, preferring control over my machine, and simpler 'text based' ways to do things. Freedom is another aspect. The simple text-based, responsive UI nature of posting here on fsxNet kind of fits
    well with the way I like to do things.

    I'm kind of thinking that people who like the Windows/Mac OS way of doing things would prefer a more graphical approach, but my assumptions may be wrong.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)

    --- D'Bridge 4
    * Origin: Dark Systems BBS (21:1/148)
  • From Mewcenary@21:1/9999 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 17:11:34 2022
    Yeah, Linux is more complex now than it was 20 years ago when I started. I miss simplicity, when you could comprehend all that
    was going on. Browsers are too complex for humans to work on now. Part of the reason I like BBS's, because writing a telnet
    client is still within the realm of possibilities for most coders and small groups.

    Welcome to the Paradox of Choice.

    There's so many different Linux distributions now, and packages (+ package management systems), let alone the different ways of _running_ these applications.... it's easy to get stuck due to the sheer number of options.

    I'm pretty much using a bit of everything in terms of OS nowadays.

    Windows: My main gaming rig. Windows is pretty good nowadays. It's rock solid, has WSL for a built-in Linux experience and is just nice to use.

    Mac: My laptops -- including work. The M1 chip is a real game changer. A laptop that _genuinely_ can run for hours without needing charging, and with zero fan noise. I love it.

    Linux: Server stuff. Still painful to use for anything on the desktop in comparison to the other systems.
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Extricate BBS - bbs.extricate.org (21:1/9999)
  • From Gamgee@21:2/138 to Mewcenary on Mon Feb 7 11:39:00 2022
    Mewcenary wrote to boraxman <=-

    Linux: Server stuff. Still painful to use for anything on the
    desktop in comparison to the other systems.

    Depends on what you're doing, or on your knowledge level, I think.

    I use mostly Linux on the desktop/laptop, and find it not painful at
    all. In fact I greatly prefer it over any alternative.


    ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
    === MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Orbitman@21:2/131 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 12:18:58 2022
    I use both Linux and Windows. I like the Linux way of doing things better
    and I can do most all the things I need to do with it. I still use
    Windows for some things...like audio/video production as I have bought
    software for that purpose. I also use TurboTax, so there ya go.

    I used to be a pretty regular user of Photoshop...but have come to like Gimp just as well...and have no problem using it.

    But if I had to pick one, my OS of choice would be Linux. My daily driver is Ubuntu 20.04 LTS.

    ----
    Thanks!
    Orbitman (Allen)
    Orbit BBS, Opp, AL USA
    orbitbbs.ddns.net:7210

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A45 2020/02/18 (Linux/32)
    * Origin: Orbit BBS-Opp, AL. USA | orbitbbs.ddns.net:7210 (21:2/131)
  • From The Millionaire@21:1/183 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 12:34:10 2022

    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems people prefer to us.

    I'm guessing that most people here are BBS hobbyists of sometime, but I wonder whether this correlates with a preference for an OS which gives you more power/flexibility, or is just practicality of day to day use important.

    I'm a Linux user myself, preferring control over my machine, and simpler 'text based' ways to do things. Freedom is another aspect. The simple text-based, responsive UI nature of posting here on fsxNet kind of fits well with the way I like to do things.

    I'm kind of thinking that people who like the Windows/Mac OS way of doing things would prefer a more graphical approach, but my assumptions may be wrong.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)


    I use IPadOS because I'm an iPad user.

    $ The Millionaire $
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Vertrauen - [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net (21:1/183)
  • From Atreyu@21:1/176 to Boraxman on Mon Feb 7 15:45:12 2022
    On 07 Feb 22 19:31:34, Boraxman said the following to All:

    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems peop prefer to us.

    I'm guessing that most people here are BBS hobbyists of sometime, but I wond whether this correlates with a preference for an OS which gives you more power/flexibility, or is just practicality of day to day use important.

    Oh for me, hands down, without question... Windows.

    I was a die-hard OS/2 fan over a decade... it ran my BBS like clockwork, and I was soooooooo stubborn I kept running it well into 2001, until one fateful evening at a friends apartment I was shown Windows 2000 Server and what could be done with it. The future was painfully clear... and I hated Windows 3.1,
    95, 98 etc... but the time of NT and 2000 it was obvious to me it was more solid and mature. When XP came out I bought one of the first copies and my BBS remains on that today.

    Atreyu

    --- Renegade vY2Ka2
    * Origin: Joey, do you like movies about gladiators? (21:1/176)
  • From DustCouncil@21:1/227 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 21:07:16 2022
    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems people prefer to us.

    All of them, in this room. I learned a long time ago that there was no benefit to me personally to become some kind of OS partisan; in my situation, there are deficiencies in all OSes.

    I am typing to you on Windows, in a PuTTY session, to my BBS, which runs Ubuntu. This is typical. My currently daily driver is Windows, but it is seconded by a Debian Linux box which acts as a file server and - not sure what to a call it - a "code box" which runs scripts, does backups, and so on. I have no Powershell or batch files I rely on; everything that runs runs usually as a bash, Perl, or increasingly Python script on the headless Linux box.

    Why run Windows on my desktop? Software availability. I no longer find it interesting to wrestle with Linux on the desktop (using WINE or whatever) to run the apps I want to run. I will say for the record that there is nothing I like about Windows except:

    * It runs the apps I want to run and am used to.
    * It doesn't break often.

    This file/server development box is not alone. There is also a router - a PC with two network cards that all of my network is defended by. The cable modem has all of its ports open; the restrictions are on my Router, which also runs Debian with iptables. This allows me to do logging and monitoring of intrusion attempts (mainly botnets) by logging ports no one should be connecting on (21, 22, 23, 80, etc.).

    I have a really horrid HP desktop running KDE. This is used for bittorrent and a few other things.

    Then I have a Macbook Air, which I bought less than a year ago, and which I just flat-out don't like. I am unsure whether I dislike it because I dislike OS X, or I am so habituated to other desktop OSes, the fact that it works differently is an irritation (probably when I was younger, those differences would have interested me). I may just sell the thing. Nothing wrong with it but I feel like I'm constantly fighting to figure out how to do basic things with it.

    A blend of Windows and Linux works well for me. This homebrew Windows desktop is more than a decade old now. It will need replacing shortly. I will likely build a really powerful PC to replace it and dual boot Windows and Linux, with Linux as my daily driver, and Windows there as a second OS to run specific apps I want to run, when I need to run them.

    All of my VPSes and the like run Ubuntu. So when it comes to Linux I fixate on Debian or Debian-derived distros just out of sheer habit. There's nothing about them I feel is deficient that would be served by running other distributions (if I did, I'd probably give Fedora a go).

    I do like FreeBSD. In fact I find it more organized and somehow more tidy than Linux. However, it has deficiencies (can't watch Netflix for example, owing to stupid DRM stuff not available on Netflix) that I can't currently bridge.

    From 2003-2011 I ran Gentoo as my daily driver; rolling release distributions break too much for my liking. Gentoo's granular controls were impressive but I found myself using them rarely, but fixing breakages frequently, owing to the need to use stuff from the unstable branch too often.

    This seems really long-winded. I now inflict it on the lot of you.

    Sorry in advance.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Shipwrecks & Shibboleths [San Francisco, CA - USA] (21:1/227)
  • From Roon@21:4/148 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 23:35:02 2022
    Hello boraxman,

    07 Feb 22 19:31, you wrote to All:

    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating
    Systems people prefer to us.

    I'm guessing that most people here are BBS hobbyists of sometime, but
    I wonder whether this correlates with a preference for an OS which
    gives you more power/flexibility, or is just practicality of day to
    day use important.

    I'm a Linux user myself, preferring control over my machine, and
    simpler 'text based' ways to do things. Freedom is another aspect.
    The simple text-based, responsive UI nature of posting here on fsxNet
    kind of fits well with the way I like to do things.

    I'm kind of thinking that people who like the Windows/Mac OS way of
    doing things would prefer a more graphical approach, but my
    assumptions may be wrong.

    i was using linux desktop, but i fed up with sucking with X11/Xorg, so i
    moved to MacOSX first with my iBook back in i don't know 2000something, and i am still a mac user. i use the adobe-enviroment (photoshop, premiere, etc..) a lot.

    but for the servers i am using debian.

    regards,
    --
    Roon's BBS
    telnet://bbs.roonsbbs.hu:1212

    ... 1:21am up 25 days, 12:18:22, load: 79 processes, 286 threads.
    --- GoldED/2
    * Origin: Roon's BBS - Budapest, HUNGARY (21:4/148)
  • From Roon@21:4/148 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 23:35:02 2022
    Hello boraxman,

    07 Feb 22 19:31, you wrote to All:

    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating
    Systems people prefer to us.

    I'm guessing that most people here are BBS hobbyists of sometime, but
    I wonder whether this correlates with a preference for an OS which
    gives you more power/flexibility, or is just practicality of day to
    day use important.

    I'm a Linux user myself, preferring control over my machine, and
    simpler 'text based' ways to do things. Freedom is another aspect.
    The simple text-based, responsive UI nature of posting here on fsxNet
    kind of fits well with the way I like to do things.

    I'm kind of thinking that people who like the Windows/Mac OS way of
    doing things would prefer a more graphical approach, but my
    assumptions may be wrong.

    i was using linux desktop, but i fed up with sucking with X11/Xorg, so i
    moved to MacOSX first with my iBook back in i don't know 2000something, and i am still a mac user. i use the adobe-enviroment (photoshop, premiere, etc..) a lot.
    but in the office i have several commodores, old dos machines, and of course the bbs with os/2... :)

    for the servers i am using debian.

    regards,
    --
    Roon's BBS
    telnet://bbs.roonsbbs.hu:1212

    ... 1:21am up 25 days, 12:18:22, load: 79 processes, 286 threads.
    --- GoldED/2
    * Origin: Roon's BBS - Budapest, HUNGARY (21:4/148)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to boraxman on Tue Feb 8 12:23:32 2022
    On 07 Feb 2022 at 07:31p, boraxman pondered and said...

    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems people prefer to us.

    Interesting question. Systems I use regularly at home:

    * macOS (laptop and workstation)
    * Plan 9 (runs most of my network infrastructure; I also
    regularly use a physical plan9 terminal)
    * OpenBSD (all my firewalls/routers and a few servers)
    * FreeBSD (dev boxes)
    * DragonFly (for development and ham radio)
    * Linux (mostly Arch; Mint on the kiddos' computer,
    Armbian/RaspberryOS for some ham radio stuff; Pop_OS!
    on a System 76 laptop)
    * Multics on DPS/8M
    * TOPS-20 on DECSYSTEM-20
    * OpenVMS on Alpha (need to fix that fan...)
    * RSTS/E on PDP-11/73
    * 7th Edition Unix on PDP-11/70
    * Pr1meOS on Prime 50
    * 4.3BSD on VAX 8650
    * NOS 2.8.7 on a Cyber-175
    * VM/CMS on an IBM mainframe
    * illumos

    Obviously, many of these run on emulated hardware; my
    actual VAXen are all powered down, but it's faster and
    more reliable for most of these things to run virtual.

    Hardware architectures include x86_64, Alpha, MIPS,
    RISC-V, ARM (aarch32 and aarch64), VAX, PDP-11, PDP-10,
    Pr1me, 6180, z/Architecture, CDC 6600.

    I'm a systems person; I work on OSes for a living. The
    variety gives me a lot of valuable perspective that's
    useful in my work.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Blue White@21:4/134 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 16:01:30 2022
    boraxman wrote to All <=-

    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems people prefer to us.

    Linux. :) Usually debian derivatives, if not debian itself.



    ... My grubby halo, a vapour trail in the empty air...
    --- MultiMail
    * Origin: Possum Lodge South * possumso.fsxnet.nz:7636/SSH:2122 (21:4/134)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Oli on Mon Feb 7 18:21:44 2022
    Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: Oli to boraxman on Mon Feb 07 2022 11:12 am

    guess it's too old now for a recent MacOS). In Linux there are too many distributions (with their own incomplete or partially outdated repositories) Ubuntu was great and went to shit. Gnome was great and is now pissing on eve desktop environments that use GTK as a foundation and doesn't want to be Gno 4. The stuff that makes your Linux booting and running is getting more and m bloated, more complicated and featureful and is forever changing, just becau they can ... I haven't tried one of the BSDs on the desktop.


    I am not satisfyed with the current state of Linux, but I don't think it is that bad either.

    The fact there are so many distributions and environments is quite good, IMO. It increases the chance that you may find something you like or put together something you like. A lot of people thinks that a big number of options makes it hard for begginers to pick one and get started with Linux, but when you are starting and you do some research, you quickly realize there are not that many options being talked about in the wild. You check your average listicle for Linux distributions to try and you get recommended Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian... not to mention a lot of options are "false" options because many distributions are just a Debian, Arch or Fedora reskin.

    I agree that some core components going crazy is not good. The whole Linux deal was made sane because there used to be the assumption that things such as GTK or Glibc or SysInit would remain stable enough so third party developers could count on them not changing wildly from a distribution to another. NOwadays that is no longer the case. No wonder some BSD just pick a version of the libraries they like and freeze them, upgrading them only for bug fixes, in an effort to skip the rat race.


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 18:24:12 2022
    Re: Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: boraxman to Joacim Melin on Tue Feb 08 2022 02:01 am

    Maybe, but then I think that Linux wouldn't be Linux if it became Windows/Ma OS. I used to think it was important that Linux become more appealing, but anymore. I'd rather keep it as a 'hobby OS'. That is its distinction, that you make the system your own, rather than having it controlled by a central power. For those who wants that polished unified, I'm happy for them to cho MacOS instead.

    Linux is far from a hobby OS. It is a corporative product made by a consortium of corporations.

    Desktop end users only get to enjoy it as a side benefit.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 18:26:38 2022
    Re: Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: boraxman to Oli on Tue Feb 08 2022 02:07 am

    Yeah, Linux is more complex now than it was 20 years ago when I started. I miss simplicity, when you could comprehend all that was going on. Browsers too complex for humans to work on now. Part of the reason I like BBS's, because writing a telnet client is still within the realm of possibilities f most coders and small groups.

    Maybe you should check the structure of Tiny Core Linux or KISS Linux. KISS Linux is kind of special because it intends to be the most minimal, simple system on which you can strap your own ports system and build arbitrary packages to your liking. It has many knockoffs because its structure is so simple it is very easy to create your custom version of the thing.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Greenlfc on Mon Feb 7 18:31:36 2022
    Re: Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: Greenlfc to boraxman on Mon Feb 07 2022 06:30 am

    If you head down the *nix rabbit hole you've got everything from the cheap SOBs, to the hardcore privacy activists, to folks who make a religion over w open source license you use, to the ones paranoid about government tracking. Your PopOS or Mint user is very different from the OpenBSD user.


    I am a cheap SOB who happens to be a hardcore privacy activist, and I am saving up for organizing a holy war for FOSS software licenses. And I also know the government is tracking me.

    Still doing research about disabling Intel mobo spyware.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Greenlfc on Mon Feb 7 18:36:34 2022
    Re: Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: Greenlfc to boraxman on Mon Feb 07 2022 06:38 am

    See, I disagree with anyone who says MacOS is more polished. I've lived wit it as my work computer for the past three years and it's a bloody disaster. *Nothing* works as it should, and the updates system is worse than Microsoft


    I have not done a whole lot with MacOS, so I would not know.

    iOS is were Satan dwells.

    I still remember when my old boss used to brag how easy to use and UX-orgasmic his iPhone was. Then he tried to add an his email account to the email client and could not figure it out. When he managed to get the correct server and account information correctly, the email client of the phone froze because the email system was not using an standard port, and the phone could not cope with it.

    Android is awful and will give you madcow disease too, but as I always say, if your phone is gonna suck, it is better if it sucks for 100 USD than for 600+.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to The Millionaire on Mon Feb 7 18:42:00 2022
    Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: The Millionaire to boraxman on Mon Feb 07 2022 12:34 pm

    I use IPadOS because I'm an iPad user.


    Interesting.

    Don't you use a regular workstation or laptop at all?

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to DustCouncil on Mon Feb 7 19:12:08 2022
    Re: Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: DustCouncil to boraxman on Mon Feb 07 2022 09:07 pm

    All of them, in this room. I learned a long time ago that there was no bene to me personally to become some kind of OS partisan; in my situation, there deficiencies in all OSes.


    There may be an OS for each task, but there are big advantages for betting hard on one family. Specially if you are managing a big lot of computers for custom tasks.

    Real world example: maybe I like a given piece of free software, but it has a bug and upstream won't patch it because they think it is a "feature". If I have an heterogeneous fleet of 10 computers, I might need to patch a custom branch of that software myself, then package that software for each of the systems those computers might be using. In a single word: PAIN.

    If those 10 computers are running the same OS, I can just place the patched software in an automated package-making cluster and upload it to my custom repository, which will distribute the patch to all the computers. It is a heavy bet to place, but it simplifies things so much.

    Also, if your grandpa asks you for help with his computer, if his computer is running something wildly different than what you are used to, it is going to take you 5 extra minutes while you remember how his OS is managed. Now imagine if you set a lonely FreeBSD appliance and you never touch it in 6 months until something cracks and you have to troubleshoot it. YOu are going to waste a quarter an hour relearning the OS only. Maybe it would have served you better to install the same thing you are running everywhere else, even if it is worse for that task, if just because you are guaranteed to have the know-how for it.

    Homogeneous fleets score an extra point because you can apply a single set of strategies for all the fleet. You don't need a backup solution for 3 OS if your fleet only has 1 OS: a single backup tool and a single backup strategy will do for them all. Same for recovery tools, hardware provisioning, you name it.

    This approach only works if you can find an OS which you can, at least, shoehorn into all the tasks you need to do, but let's be honest, the notion that a given OS is a must for certain task X is becoming a myth in most fields. We are reaching a point in which most generic tasks can be done, better of worse, with the same OS. Specially if you are flexible.

    For example: if your goal is playing GTA 24, your platform choices might be reduced; if your goal is watching Netfleex, your may be stuck with a given platform. However, if you goals are "playing awesome games" or "watching cool movies online," then you don't need to artificially limit your options.

    I am not free from sin, but I am working towards homogenizing all my home PC fleet (job computer fleets are already done). I am getting there :-)


    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Greenlfc on Tue Feb 8 14:22:34 2022
    Depending on how granular you want to get, there are a few more options you might want to include in your polling (or you might want to have a follow-up), and I think the reasons will be telling.

    For example, I know lots of Mac people who are very competent devops
    types that like having a supported *nix-like base, where everything (allegedly) "just works" on pretty hardware. Those folks chose Mac for
    a very different reason than the folks that don't want to worry about little details like where the power button is.

    I also know folks that like and run Linux because they're cheap and it runs better on low-end hardware. They'd rather run Windows, but there's no way they're shelling out that kind of money.

    If you head down the *nix rabbit hole you've got everything from the
    cheap SOBs, to the hardcore privacy activists, to folks who make a religion over what open source license you use, to the ones paranoid
    about government tracking. Your PopOS or Mint user is very different
    from the OpenBSD user.

    To answer your initial inquiry: I use Linux when I have a choice. Qubes is my daily driver since I'm in the "privacy activist" and "paranoid
    about the gov't" camps. :)


    Good point, I assumed people would explain their choice. It is the reasoning
    I find more interesting than the choice itself. Why people follow a mainstream choice isn't interesting, it is why people go for alternatives that is. I figured people that use BBS's are those seeking something different. I briefly looked at Qubes, and it seems interesting, though I don't think I fully grok it yet.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Greenlfc on Tue Feb 8 14:24:24 2022
    See, I disagree with anyone who says MacOS is more polished. I've lived with it as my work computer for the past three years and it's a bloody disaster. *Nothing* works as it should, and the updates system is worse than Microsoft.

    If Microsoft would quit adding trackers, ads, forced Microsoft accounts, and unnecessary features to Windows it would actually be quite
    compelling. Outside of those items, the last several versions of Win10 have been pretty solid. If I needed to use a proprietary OS, I'd slap Windows Server 2019 on my laptop and call it a day.


    I did use one at work for a few years. The company used Macs because the CEO was a Mac person. It worked OK, and the unix tools came in useful everynow
    and them, but Office was a tad janky and I was shocked how little choice you had to customise it.

    Didn't do updates though. My wife is a Mac user, but she doesn't update either.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to DustCouncil on Tue Feb 8 14:33:20 2022
    All of them, in this room. I learned a long time ago that there was no benefit to me personally to become some kind of OS partisan; in my situation, there are deficiencies in all OSes.


    Intresting, my reasoning is the more I learn one system, the more I gain by using that everywhere. My custom FVWM configuration can follow me around, as well as all the other "convienience" scripts and set ups.

    I do like FreeBSD. In fact I find it more organized and somehow more
    tidy than Linux. However, it has deficiencies (can't watch Netflix for example, owing to stupid DRM stuff not available on Netflix) that I
    can't currently bridge.


    I seriously considered using BSD for my laptop, but in the end went with Debian in case of hardware/software compatibility. FreeBSD had some code of conduct I didn't like, and that was also a turn off. Would still like to use it though.

    This seems really long-winded. I now inflict it on the lot of you.

    Sorry in advance.

    Thats OK, I did read the entire reply ;)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Arelor on Tue Feb 8 14:41:40 2022
    I am not satisfyed with the current state of Linux, but I don't think it is that bad either.

    The fact there are so many distributions and environments is quite good, IMO. It increases the chance that you may find something you like or put together something you like. A lot of people thinks that a big number of options makes it hard for begginers to pick one and get started with Linux, but when you are starting and you do some research, you quickly realize there are not that many options being talked about in the wild. You check your average listicle for Linux distributions to try and you
    get recommended Ubuntu, Fedora, Debian... not to mention a lot of
    options are "false" options because many distributions are just a
    Debian, Arch or Fedora reskin.


    I think distro choice matters less than people think. You can make the
    distro "Your own" regardless of starting point. I didn't really distrohop, I just used what I first got and stuck with it. The different "spins" just adds to confusion, as do the forks.

    I agree that some core components going crazy is not good. The whole
    Linux deal was made sane because there used to be the assumption that things such as GTK or Glibc or SysInit would remain stable enough so
    third party developers could count on them not changing wildly from a distribution to another. NOwadays that is no longer the case. No wonder some BSD just pick a version of the libraries they like and freeze them, upgrading them only for bug fixes, in an effort to skip the rat race.


    I think a lot of people in the software industry don't understand users, and what people DO with their machines. Too caught up in their own industry. As I mentioned before, I think a large problem is people 'solve problems' in the tech world by just writing more code, more programs, when it really is a matter of better organisation and use of what we already have.

    The BSD guys do seem more pragmatic in this respect.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to boraxman on Mon Feb 7 19:41:20 2022
    Re: Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: boraxman to Greenlfc on Tue Feb 08 2022 02:22 pm

    Good point, I assumed people would explain their choice. It is the reasonin I find more interesting than the choice itself. Why people follow a mainstr choice isn't interesting, it is why people go for alternatives that is. I figured people that use BBS's are those seeking something different. I brie looked at Qubes, and it seems interesting, though I don't think I fully grok yet.

    The idea behind Qubes is that, internally, it keeps everything separated.

    For example, you may have a virtual environment for your job, in which you keep all your job files, your job web browser and your job accounting sostfware. Then you may have another virtual environment you use for watching My Little Pony cartoons and which is full of My Little Pony videos, van art and whatever. ANd then you may have a different environment you use for your online banking.

    The idea is that if you download a My Little Pony video with malware, the damage will be contained in your My Little Pony environment and won't damage anything outside of the My Little Pony box.

    What makes Qubes special is that all of this separation is made transparently to the user. Applications are color coded, so when you launch the "blue firefox" you need it is the "banking firefox", whereas the "green filebrowser" is the "MLP file browser".

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Arelor on Tue Feb 8 14:46:16 2022
    Maybe you should check the structure of Tiny Core Linux or KISS Linux. KISS Linux is kind of special because it intends to be the most minimal, simple system on which you can strap your own ports system and build arbitrary packages to your liking. It has many knockoffs because its structure is so simple it is very easy to create your custom version of the thing.



    Firstly, I do agree Linux is more than a hobby OS, it is used seriously, but it still has the flexibility to be played with by hobbyists moreso than Windows or Mac OS.

    I think I did look at Tiny Core Linux, and I have used Puppy Linux, which is also simple and straightforward. I looked at Tiny Core for an older machine of mine.

    As it is now, I'm too much a creature of habit to switch.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Arelor on Tue Feb 8 15:05:04 2022
    The idea behind Qubes is that, internally, it keeps everything separated.

    For example, you may have a virtual environment for your job, in which
    you keep all your job files, your job web browser and your job
    accounting sostfware. Then you may have another virtual environment you use for watching My Little Pony cartoons and which is full of My Little Pony videos, van art and whatever. ANd then you may have a different environment you use for your online banking.

    The idea is that if you download a My Little Pony video with malware, the damage will be contained in your My Little Pony environment and won't damage anything outside of the My Little Pony box.

    What makes Qubes special is that all of this separation is made transparently to the user. Applications are color coded, so when you launch the "blue firefox" you need it is the "banking firefox", whereas the "green filebrowser" is the "MLP file browser".


    Cool. My concern is more tracking, "Big Tech", being locked to platforms and solutions (Apple/Android duopoly on phones). Security is important but I'm more focused on my footprint, traceability etc. Not much point having your OS secured up the wazoo, if those political discussions you have on FidoNet become web-searchable with your real name.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Arelor on Tue Feb 8 15:09:10 2022
    Also, if your grandpa asks you for help with his computer, if his
    computer is running something wildly different than what you are used
    to, it is going to take you 5 extra minutes while you remember how his
    OS is managed. Now imagine if you set a lonely FreeBSD appliance and you never touch it in 6 months until something cracks and you have to troubleshoot it. YOu are going to waste a quarter an hour relearning the OS only. Maybe it would have served you better to install the same thing you are running everywhere else, even if it is worse for that task, if just because you are guaranteed to have the know-how for it.

    That is why I'm getting my wife a Linux laptop instead of the Apple that she is used to. She can use KDE, and from her POV, she mostly uses just the
    browser anyway. But when the question "How do I ..." gets asked, I'd be able to help. Whether it is automating backups, syncing the photos with the main desktop, networking, troubleshooting, I'll be able to get it up and running.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/11/06 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Vorlon@21:1/195.1 to boraxman on Tue Feb 8 12:42:26 2022

    Hello boraxman!

    07 Feb 22 19:31, you wrote to all:

    I'm a Linux user myself, preferring control over my machine, and
    simpler 'text based' ways to do things. Freedom is another aspect.
    The simple text-based, responsive UI nature of posting here on fsxNet
    kind of fits well with the way I like to do things.

    That is like asking why the sky is blue and not some other colour.. Everyone has there own likes and dis likes..

    Servers that I setup: Debian.
    Servers that are prebuilt appliance type: Centos, FreeBSD
    Servers for clients that I don't touch unless needed tend to be Windows Server. (Yuk)

    Personal workstation: Linux Mint.





    Vorlon


    --- GoldED+/LNX 1.1.5-b20180707
    * Origin: \/orlon Empire: Sector 550 (21:1/195.1)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to boraxman on Tue Feb 8 04:35:34 2022
    Re: Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: boraxman to Arelor on Tue Feb 08 2022 03:05 pm

    Cool. My concern is more tracking, "Big Tech", being locked to platforms an solutions (Apple/Android duopoly on phones). Security is important but I'm more focused on my footprint, traceability etc. Not much point having your secured up the wazoo, if those political discussions you have on FidoNet bec web-searchable with your real name.

    My first contact with Qubes was precisely because I was looking for a convenient way of keeping identities separate.

    Say you have a darknet identity for talking about My Little Pony, a darknet identity for talking about software development, and a darknet identity for downloading warez non-stop. The secure way of managing them in a "standard" environment would be to boot a Live DVD each time you wanted to use a given identity, and reboot everytime you wanted to switch identity (because you need to rebuild your darknet circuits, and you don't want to use a darknet circuit you have been using as PinkPony for doing something you want to do as WarezDownloader2000).

    Qubes makes it more convenient because you can keep every identity confined to its own virtual environment and you don't need to be rebooting and reloading circuits every time you want to switch identities. Or that is the theory.

    In the end of the day I didn't do much with Qubes because the hardware requisites are beyond what I can muster right now.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From acn@21:3/127.1 to boraxman on Tue Feb 8 12:00:00 2022
    Am 07.02.22 schrieb boraxman@21:1/101 in FSX_GEN:

    Hi,

    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems people prefer to us.

    I'm a Linux girl that prefers .deb packages and 'aptitude' for package management.
    So, I'm using Devuan and Debian on my servers (including the BBS) and
    KDE Neon on my desktop PCs (because I like KDE).

    But I do have two Windows PCs: One for some games and for 3D modelling
    (using Fusion 360) and 3D printing and on my notebook (GPD P2 Max) I'm
    also running Windows because I'm too lazy to install and configure
    Linux for the hardware :) - and because using a browser and a console (MobaXterm) is enough and is running quite okay on Win10 there.

    I used to use MacOS, I've owned a PowerBook G4 and an iMac (2010), but
    then the flat design b*llsh*t came along and Apple decided to dumb-
    down everything to iOS standards, so my Apple Pages stuff did not work
    any longer - and so I decided to exit the golden cage and moved back
    to Linux.

    I've also used OS/2 in the mid/late 90s and loved it, also I'm a fan
    of Novell NetWare, which I'm also currently running in a VM :)

    I'm also running CP/M 3 on two kit computers (RC2014 and SC126) and
    have an Amiga 1200 :)

    Regards,
    Anna

    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: Imzadi Box Point (21:3/127.1)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Arelor on Wed Feb 9 01:11:42 2022
    My first contact with Qubes was precisely because I was looking for a convenient way of keeping identities separate.

    Say you have a darknet identity for talking about My Little Pony, a darknet identity for talking about software development, and a darknet identity for downloading warez non-stop. The secure way of managing them in a "standard" environment would be to boot a Live DVD each time you wanted to use a given identity, and reboot everytime you wanted to
    switch identity (because you need to rebuild your darknet circuits, and you don't want to use a darknet circuit you have been using as PinkPony for doing something you want to do as WarezDownloader2000).

    Qubes makes it more convenient because you can keep every identity confined to its own virtual environment and you don't need to be
    rebooting and reloading circuits every time you want to switch
    identities. Or that is the theory.

    In the end of the day I didn't do much with Qubes because the hardware requisites are beyond what I can muster right now.


    I think I understand now what problem the are trying to address. Makes sense, mostly...

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to acn on Wed Feb 9 01:17:46 2022
    I used to use MacOS, I've owned a PowerBook G4 and an iMac (2010), but then the flat design b*llsh*t came along and Apple decided to dumb-
    down everything to iOS standards, so my Apple Pages stuff did not work any longer - and so I decided to exit the golden cage and moved back
    to Linux.

    I've also used OS/2 in the mid/late 90s and loved it, also I'm a fan
    of Novell NetWare, which I'm also currently running in a VM :)

    I'm also running CP/M 3 on two kit computers (RC2014 and SC126) and
    have an Amiga 1200 :)


    Using Apple can feel like having golden handcuffs!

    A friend of mine had OS/2 in the 90s, or at least tried it and raved about it. It was a better Windows than Windows, stable and capable. I do still have a Windows partition, which was for a few games, but with Proton, it is almost unecessary. I use Windows now only to build Windows versions of some hobby software I write.

    Technically, I also use DOS as I have a couple of old 486's lying around.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Sporathan@21:1/162 to tenser on Tue Feb 8 12:33:38 2022
    * Plan 9 (runs most of my network infrastructure; I also
    regularly use a physical plan9 terminal)

    Whoa. I've never heard anyone actually use it!! I might give that a whirl some time. Any reason you use it for your network? What do you does it manage?

    * [tons of other cool OS's]

    I really need to get to know you! :D

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Cheshire Underground (21:1/162)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Sporathan on Wed Feb 9 02:55:28 2022
    On 08 Feb 2022 at 12:33p, Sporathan pondered and said...

    * Plan 9 (runs most of my network infrastructure; I also
    regularly use a physical plan9 terminal)

    Whoa. I've never heard anyone actually use it!! I might give that a
    whirl some time. Any reason you use it for your network? What do you
    does it manage?

    I run the full network setup: auth, CPU, file server, and terminal
    all on separate physical machines.

    I use it mainly because I like it (it was my primary environment
    for a few years in the early 2000s, before the web became truly
    inescapable). I use it to run DHCP, DNS, etc, plus its native
    services. I still really like the ndb format for configuration
    data; it makes it easy to, say, add a machine: you set up a stanza
    with key/value pairs including MAC address, IPv4/v6 addresses, and
    names and the DNS and DHCP servers pick it up automatically.

    I also understand its internals really well, having made major
    changes to the kernel and userspace over the years. I'm still
    on the technical advisory group.

    That said, I wouldn't really recommend that people try and do the
    sort of stuff I'm doing with it; it is flaky. For example, the
    DNS server crashes all the time, which is a pain. If you run on
    even slightly incompatible hardware, it'll require deep specialist
    knowledge to get running. That said, the Raspberry Pi distro runs
    pretty reliably and is a great way to kick the tires. It is fun
    to mess around with, and will stretch your brain in interesting
    ways.

    http://pub.gajendra.net/2016/05/plan9part1 is an introduction I
    wrote a few years ago that may prove interesting.

    * [tons of other cool OS's]

    I really need to get to know you! :D

    I ain't that cool. :-)

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to boraxman on Wed Feb 9 03:11:50 2022
    On 08 Feb 2022 at 02:01a, boraxman pondered and said...

    Maybe, but then I think that Linux wouldn't be Linux if it became Windows/Mac OS. I used to think it was important that Linux become more appealing, but not anymore. I'd rather keep it as a 'hobby OS'. That
    is its distinction, that you make the system your own, rather than
    having it controlled by a central power. For those who wants that polished unified, I'm happy for them to choose MacOS instead.

    Even if this were the case, which as others have pointed out it is
    not, with any modern system (particularly the x86 types) Linux really
    only gives you the illusion that you're in control of the system.

    There is so much stuff that happens even before the x86 cores come
    out of reset, mostly using closed-source binary blobs that you have
    no control over whatsoever, that it's mind-boggling. And the x86 cores themselves run many billions of instructions of firmware code that,
    again, most users have no control over (and has seriously dubious
    provenance) before the boatloader even starts. Everything from power sequencing to DRAM training is under the control of some chunk of
    software that comes from somewhere. Then once the system is running
    you still have the EC, maybe a BMC, plus SMM, ACPI flows, TrustZone
    on ARM, etc.

    Not to mention all the little processor cores running on various
    peripherals using their own firmware.

    If one were to count up the total number of CPUs in a single
    modern system, even treating multicore CPUs as a single unit, it
    would easily sum into the double or triple digits. Linux (or,
    really, any OS) runs on a tiny fraction of those with absolutely
    no insight into what most of them are doing, or even what the cores
    it "runs" are fully doing.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Joacim Melin@21:2/130 to Arelor on Tue Feb 8 15:14:48 2022
    Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: Arelor to Joacim Melin on Mon Feb 07 2022 03:24 am

    I am of the opinion that installing untrusted binary blobs in a mostly FOSS

    Operating System. Anyway, Fedora is well supported and afaik there are rpm

    What happened to that sentence?

    What I meant is that installing untrusted binary blobs in a mostly
    FOSS
    Operating System is ruining it a little.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    Well - if you need an app, you need it. There isn't always a FOSS alternative (unfortunatly).


    --- NiKom v2.6.0
    * Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (21:2/130.0)
  • From Greenlfc@21:2/150 to DustCouncil on Tue Feb 8 05:49:30 2022
    On 07 Feb 2022, DustCouncil said the following...

    I will likely build a really powerful PC to replace it and dual boot Windows and Linux, with Linux as my daily driver, and Windows there as a second OS to run specific apps I want to run, when I need to run them.

    If you want to consolidate a bit, consider either running Windows with Linux VMs (for bittorrent, your scripting environment etc), or check out the Windows Subsystem for Linux, which checks a lot of those boxes. Dual booting is a PITA except in certain situations, IMHO.

    GreenLFC º e> greenleaderfanclub@protonmail.com
    Infosec / Ham / Retro º masto> greenleaderfanclub@distrotoot
    Avoids Politics on BBS º gem> gemini.greenleader.xyz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Greenlfc@21:2/150 to Arelor on Tue Feb 8 05:56:32 2022
    On 07 Feb 2022, Arelor said the following...

    Still doing research about disabling Intel mobo spyware.

    Yeah, that's really frustrating to me, to the point of I'm looking hard at alternative hardware and architectures. ROCK64 has some interesting SBCs that could get you in the ballpark for a usable desktop environment. Ricing up an old PowerMac G5 is also an option. The RCS Talos II and Blackbird are too rich for my blood, but the direction I would head if money were no object.

    GreenLFC º e> greenleaderfanclub@protonmail.com
    Infosec / Ham / Retro º masto> greenleaderfanclub@distrotoot
    Avoids Politics on BBS º gem> gemini.greenleader.xyz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Greenlfc@21:2/150 to Arelor on Tue Feb 8 05:58:42 2022
    On 07 Feb 2022, Arelor said the following...

    Android is awful and will give you madcow disease too, but as I always say, if your phone is gonna suck, it is better if it sucks for 100 USD than for 600+.

    Oh yes, I agree with your "$100 vs $600" line 100%. If you don't need the Google Services Framework, a Pixel 3XL or 4 running GrapheneOS is a compelling option.

    GreenLFC º e> greenleaderfanclub@protonmail.com
    Infosec / Ham / Retro º masto> greenleaderfanclub@distrotoot
    Avoids Politics on BBS º gem> gemini.greenleader.xyz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Greenlfc@21:2/150 to boraxman on Tue Feb 8 06:07:48 2022
    On 08 Feb 2022, boraxman said the following...

    something different. I briefly looked at Qubes, and it seems
    interesting, though I don't think I fully grok it yet.

    It takes a minute, and it helps if you're an experienced enterprise sysadmin (although *certainly* isn't required). The key thing is separation of duties (or, arguably, personalities). By isolating your personas into individual Qubes (VMs) you reduce the damage if one of them is compromised (say by an escape from firefox).

    The networking component is another rabbit hole. Your Qubes are protected by a dedicated networking Qube which handles firewalling, routing, etc. If your machine is locked and someone plugs in a USB device, it's dead-ended at the USB qube until you login and attach it where you want it to go.

    You *are* still somewhat vulnerable to IME attacks, but there's some mitigations in there. IME is the devil.

    GreenLFC º e> greenleaderfanclub@protonmail.com
    Infosec / Ham / Retro º masto> greenleaderfanclub@distrotoot
    Avoids Politics on BBS º gem> gemini.greenleader.xyz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Greenlfc@21:2/150 to Arelor on Tue Feb 8 06:10:04 2022
    On 07 Feb 2022, Arelor said the following...

    The idea behind Qubes is that, internally, it keeps everything separated.

    You did a much better job of explaining that than I did :).

    GreenLFC º e> greenleaderfanclub@protonmail.com
    Infosec / Ham / Retro º masto> greenleaderfanclub@distrotoot
    Avoids Politics on BBS º gem> gemini.greenleader.xyz

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Sporathan on Tue Feb 8 09:11:28 2022
    Re: Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: Sporathan to tenser on Tue Feb 08 2022 12:33 pm

    * Plan 9 (runs most of my network infrastructure; I also
    regularly use a physical plan9 terminal)

    Whoa. I've never heard anyone actually use it!! I might give that a whirl some time
    Any reason you use it for your network? What do you does it manage?


    The people at IRCNow is experimenting with Plan 9 and offering virtual machines to
    anybody who wants to experiment or do development work on Plan 9. It is not a system
    which has been left in the dust and forgotten :-)

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Arelor@21:2/138 to Greenlfc on Tue Feb 8 09:17:14 2022
    Re: Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: Greenlfc to Arelor on Tue Feb 08 2022 05:58 am

    On 07 Feb 2022, Arelor said the following...

    Android is awful and will give you madcow disease too, but as I always say, if
    your phone is gonna suck, it is better if it sucks for 100 USD than for 600+.

    Oh yes, I agree with your "$100 vs $600" line 100%. If you don't need the Google
    Services Framework, a Pixel 3XL or 4 running GrapheneOS is a compelling option.

    GreenLFC â•‘ e> greenleaderfanclub@protonmail.com
    Infosec / Ham / Retro â•‘ masto> greenleaderfanclub@distrotoot
    Avoids Politics on BBS â•‘ gem> gemini.greenleader.xyz

    I always tell this story: I had a second hand Galaxy S2 with no Google services,
    running LineageOS. It took me a while to get it ready for use to the point I liked it.

    Then a mare of mine stepped on it.

    It kind of soured me against mobile devices.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Linux
    * Origin: Palantir * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL * (21:2/138)
  • From Oli@21:3/102 to Sporathan on Tue Feb 8 18:46:12 2022
    Sporathan wrote (2022-02-08):

    * Plan 9 (runs most of my network infrastructure; I also
    regularly use a physical plan9 terminal)

    Whoa. I've never heard anyone actually use it!! I might give that a whirl some time.

    This is another nice introduction to Plan 9:

    https://pspodcasting.net/dan/blog/2019/plan9_desktop.html

    (written by another Dan)

    ---
    * Origin: Birds aren't real (21:3/102)
  • From Oli@21:3/102 to tenser on Tue Feb 8 18:47:06 2022
    tenser wrote (2022-02-08):

    Interesting question. Systems I use regularly at home:

    * Plan 9 (runs most of my network infrastructure; I also
    regularly use a physical plan9 terminal)

    *physical* plan9 terminal?

    ---
    * Origin: Birds aren't real (21:3/102)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Oli on Wed Feb 9 07:13:24 2022
    On 08 Feb 2022 at 06:47p, Oli pondered and said...

    tenser wrote (2022-02-08):
    * Plan 9 (runs most of my network infrastructure; I also
    regularly use a physical plan9 terminal)

    *physical* plan9 terminal?

    As in a physical computer running a plan9 terminal kernel,
    as opposed to drawterm.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Oli@21:3/102 to boraxman on Tue Feb 8 19:18:54 2022
    boraxman wrote (2022-02-08):

    I think distro choice matters less than people think. You can make the distro "Your own" regardless of starting point.

    Even OS choice matters less than people think unless you have to use some specific software that is only available for a specific OS. And then software choice matters more than distro / OS choice.

    Standard stuff like browsing, writing, reading, office stuff, playing video and audio and I can do on any major OS and any distro.

    Then there is always the VM option or WSL for Linux in Windows.

    I didn't really
    distrohop, I just used what I first got and stuck with it.

    I started with Debian a long time ago, used Windows on the laptop and Linux for server. Distro-hopped to Ubuntu, tried some non-deb distros, SmartOS (Solaris), FreeBSD and came back to Debian for the desktop and Debian and Alpine on server.

    I like to try:
    SerenityOS
    HaikuOS
    Amiga (emulated)
    Plan 9

    Already tried:
    RiscOS for some hours over a couple of days. Interesting and different.

    ---
    * Origin: Birds aren't real (21:3/102)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Oli on Wed Feb 9 07:25:42 2022
    On 08 Feb 2022 at 06:46p, Oli pondered and said...

    https://pspodcasting.net/dan/blog/2019/plan9_desktop.html

    I skimmed it, and that looks like a very nice introduction to
    the 9front fork. It's slightly dated (they've switched to git
    from mercurial, for instance).

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Otto Reverse@21:2/150 to boraxman on Tue Feb 8 10:50:06 2022
    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems people prefer to us.

    I'm kind of thinking that people who like the Windows/Mac OS way of doing things would prefer a more graphical approach, but my assumptions may be wrong.

    Been a FreeBSD then Linux user since 1994, but for a computer just for email and surfing the web and perhaps a few applications I prefer Mac. It's just more polished. Don't get me wrong, the Linux desktop has come a long way over the decades.

    My son was issued a Chromebook for school. Horrible little thing with a low resolution 14 inch screen. So for homework and studying (no physical textbooks, it's horrible) I gave him my 27" iMac. That means my Windows 10 gaming PC became my regular workstation. Windows has always been behind Mac for UI "smoothness" and polish and Win 10 is no different. It's also practically spyware too. So I didn't want to use it for regular "stuff". So it is now dual-boot with Garuda Linux (an Arch distro) that has KDE Plasma as the desktop. It is nice. Lot's of features and customizations as one would expect. But still not as polished as MacOS.

    As for tools for configuring things like BBSes or servers, I'm very much a command line person. Always have been. MacOS and Linux both shine there.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Raspberry Pi/32)
    * Origin: 2o fOr beeRS bbs>>>20ForBeers.com:1337 (21:2/150)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to tenser on Wed Feb 9 10:11:54 2022
    Even if this were the case, which as others have pointed out it is
    not, with any modern system (particularly the x86 types) Linux really
    only gives you the illusion that you're in control of the system.

    There is so much stuff that happens even before the x86 cores come
    out of reset, mostly using closed-source binary blobs that you have
    no control over whatsoever, that it's mind-boggling. And the x86 cores themselves run many billions of instructions of firmware code that,
    again, most users have no control over (and has seriously dubious provenance) before the boatloader even starts. Everything from power sequencing to DRAM training is under the control of some chunk of
    software that comes from somewhere. Then once the system is running
    you still have the EC, maybe a BMC, plus SMM, ACPI flows, TrustZone
    on ARM, etc.

    Not to mention all the little processor cores running on various peripherals using their own firmware.

    If one were to count up the total number of CPUs in a single
    modern system, even treating multicore CPUs as a single unit, it
    would easily sum into the double or triple digits. Linux (or,
    really, any OS) runs on a tiny fraction of those with absolutely
    no insight into what most of them are doing, or even what the cores
    it "runs" are fully doing.


    That is a worrying aspect of modern computing, but this is at a different level. I concur that at this level, we don't have control, but it is the external presentation that we still can (for now) make ours.

    For example, I can choose my graphical environment of choice, configure daemons as I see fit, choose to use the CLI over the GUI, or not use a GUI at all. FVWM is still highly configurable and I can change aspects of the startup, and the kernel if need be.

    We never really did have control at the CPU level. What has changed is that where we used to be able to program the CPU at a fundamental level, we are now dealing with an abstraction. The machine may be doing things we don't realise it is doing.

    The external appearance is the same, but what is happening "under the surface" as increased.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Sporathan@21:1/162 to tenser on Tue Feb 8 23:50:18 2022
    I run the full network setup: auth, CPU, file server, and terminal
    all on separate physical machines.

    Ah ok that makes sense.

    I also understand its internals really well, having made major
    changes to the kernel and userspace over the years. I'm still
    on the technical advisory group.

    Very cool! I didn't realize it was still alive, that alive!

    That said, I wouldn't really recommend that people try and do the
    sort of stuff I'm doing with it; it is flaky. For example, the
    ...
    pretty reliably and is a great way to kick the tires. It is fun
    to mess around with, and will stretch your brain in interesting
    ways.

    A few of us dabbled with it at work (I worked for AT&T Labs for a bit). I didn't get too much into it, at the time (~2000) I was a bit more obsessed with BeOS.

    http://pub.gajendra.net/2016/05/plan9part1 is an introduction I
    wrote a few years ago that may prove interesting.

    Added to my spring project list!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Cheshire Underground (21:1/162)
  • From Sporathan@21:1/162 to Oli on Wed Feb 9 00:01:44 2022

    This is another nice introduction to Plan 9:

    https://pspodcasting.net/dan/blog/2019/plan9_desktop.html

    (written by another Dan)

    I'll check it out. Thanks!

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Cheshire Underground (21:1/162)
  • From Weatherman@21:1/132 to Atreyu on Tue Feb 8 20:07:30 2022

    I was a die-hard OS/2 fan over a decade... it ran my BBS like clockwork,
    and I was soooooooo stubborn I kept running it well into 2001, until one fateful evening at a friends apartment I was shown Windows 2000 Server and what could be done with it. The future was painfully clear... and I hated Windows 3.1, 95, 98 etc... but the time of NT and 2000 it was obvious to
    me it was more solid and mature. When XP came out I bought one of the
    first copies and my BBS remains on that today.

    You aren't the only one. My BBS nodes don't run on anything else besides OS/2 (eCS), which is where they still are today in 2022. All in a VM on my ESXi server, which happens to be by far the smallest VM on my home cluster.

    - Mark
    ÿÿÿ
    --- WWIVToss v.1.52
    * Origin: http://www.weather-station.org * Bel Air, MD -USA (21:1/132.0)
  • From Vk3jed@21:1/109 to boraxman on Wed Feb 9 13:32:00 2022
    On 02-07-22 19:31, boraxman wrote to All <=-

    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems people prefer to us.

    The best one for the job I'm doing. I use a mix of Windows and Linux - typically, Windows for things I want to interact with frequently, Linux for back end systems, though there is at least one exception (a Linux desktop PC).

    I'm kind of thinking that people who like the Windows/Mac OS way of
    doing things would prefer a more graphical approach, but my assumptions may be wrong.

    Depends what I'm doing. GUI "point and shoot" is good for some tasks, but for others, especially automation, nothing beats the command line.


    ... Potted meat: all the other stuff too vile for hot dogs.
    === MultiMail/Win v0.52
    --- SBBSecho 3.10-Linux
    * Origin: Freeway BBS Bendigo,Australia freeway.apana.org.au (21:1/109)
  • From Joacim Melin@21:2/130 to Greenlfc on Wed Feb 9 12:50:24 2022
    On 08 Feb 2022, boraxman said the following...

    The problem is that instead of people learning how to use existing
    solutions properly, they invent another! So people decide that RPM's or
    DEB's are no good, and create Snap, Flatpak and AppImage. Now we have
    three more ways!

    Cue the obligatory https://xkcd.com/927/

    having it controlled by a central power. For those who wants that
    polished unified, I'm happy for them to choose MacOS instead.

    See, I disagree with anyone who says MacOS is more polished. I've
    lived with it as my work computer for the past three years and it's a bloody disaster. *Nothing* works as it should, and the updates system
    is worse than Microsoft.

    If Microsoft would quit adding trackers, ads, forced Microsoft
    accounts, and unnecessary features to Windows it would actually be
    quite compelling. Outside of those items, the last several versions of Win10 have been pretty solid. If I needed to use a proprietary OS,
    I'd slap Windows Server 2019 on my laptop and call it a day.

    TBH, I've used Windows 10 since it was released and I'm yet to see an ad anywhere in the UI. They install a bunch of trial apps but I just delete them and that's that. Their tracking is a different story and I can't speak of how much they actually track - I would think that Pihole (which is my DNS resolver at home) takes care of most of that.


    --- NiKom v2.6.0
    * Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (21:2/130.0)
  • From Joacim Melin@21:2/130 to Greenlfc on Wed Feb 9 12:53:36 2022
    On 07 Feb 2022, Arelor said the following...

    Android is awful and will give you madcow disease too, but as I always
    say, if your phone is gonna suck, it is better if it sucks for 100 USD
    than for 600+.

    Oh yes, I agree with your "$100 vs $600" line 100%. If you don't need
    the Google Services Framework, a Pixel 3XL or 4 running GrapheneOS is
    a compelling option.

    I got myself a Oneplus Nord two years ago and was shocked over how bad the Google integration was. It's absolutely everywhere and it's very, very frustrating. I rooted it and installed LinageOS which was better but I have since returned to iPhone country again and I like it way better. Sure, Apple wants you to login to iCloud but you don't really have to and I can add a email account or address book with the built in apps without having to login to iCloud, which I couldn't with Android and Google.


    --- NiKom v2.6.0
    * Origin: Delta City (deltacity.se, Vallentuna, Sweden) (21:2/130.0)
  • From Oli@21:3/102 to tenser on Wed Feb 9 13:14:02 2022
    tenser wrote (2022-02-09):

    On 08 Feb 2022 at 06:46p, Oli pondered and said...

    https://pspodcasting.net/dan/blog/2019/plan9_desktop.html

    I skimmed it, and that looks like a very nice introduction to
    the 9front fork. It's slightly dated (they've switched to git
    from mercurial, for instance).

    I've read some of it and then decided to wait until I have a plan9 running on the (headless) Raspberry. I've compiled drawterm yesterday on Debian. Recently discovered the -j parameter for make, which makes compiling stuff on the Raspi much more fun.

    Any recommendation for a good 3-button mice (or trackball) with a proper middle button? I don't like using the scroll wheel as the middle button. I have the old serial Logitech from the 80s and some newer 3-button Logitechs (90s?), but AFAIK they are all mechanical.

    ---
    * Origin: Birds aren't real (21:3/102)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Sporathan on Thu Feb 10 02:46:06 2022
    On 08 Feb 2022 at 11:50p, Sporathan pondered and said...

    That said, I wouldn't really recommend that people try and do the sort of stuff I'm doing with it; it is flaky. For example, the
    ...
    pretty reliably and is a great way to kick the tires. It is fun
    to mess around with, and will stretch your brain in interesting
    ways.

    A few of us dabbled with it at work (I worked for AT&T Labs for a bit). I didn't get too much into it, at the time (~2000) I was a bit more
    obsessed with BeOS.

    Ah, cool. Which location were you at? I know a number of folks who
    went to AT&T labs.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to boraxman on Thu Feb 10 02:51:38 2022
    On 09 Feb 2022 at 10:11a, boraxman pondered and said...

    For example, I can choose my graphical environment of choice, configure daemons as I see fit, choose to use the CLI over the GUI, or not use a
    GUI at all. FVWM is still highly configurable and I can change aspects
    of the startup, and the kernel if need be.

    If that's what you're into, go for it. I used to be very into
    configuring my environment, having for instance, lengthly X11
    startup scripts and resource files, elaborate shell configuration,
    etc. Now, I mostly don't want to have to care: the interesting
    thing for me is what I get to do _with_ the computer, not what I
    do _to_ the computer.

    We never really did have control at the CPU level. What has changed is that where we used to be able to program the CPU at a fundamental level, we are now dealing with an abstraction. The machine may be doing things we don't realise it is doing.

    If by, "we never really did have control at the CPU level" you mean
    that you were constrained by the ISA, then I guess that's true, though
    FPGAs have been available for a long while now. Most machines you've
    used have probably been microcoded as long as you've used them.

    The external appearance is the same, but what is happening "under the surface" as increased.

    Indeed it has. So much so that the "operating system" is actually in
    charge of a pretty constrained slice of the machine. Timothy Roscoe's
    OSDI'21 keynote nicely illustrated this very nicely.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Oli on Thu Feb 10 02:57:20 2022
    On 09 Feb 2022 at 01:14p, Oli pondered and said...

    Any recommendation for a good 3-button mice (or trackball) with a proper middle button? I don't like using the scroll wheel as the middle button.
    I have the old serial Logitech from the 80s and some newer 3-button Logitechs (90s?), but AFAIK they are all mechanical.

    I've been using the Evoluent Vertical Mouse for ~15 years, and
    I like it. The VM 4 works just fine out of the box with plan9.
    Earlier models mismatched buttons, so that clicking the bottom
    (right) buttom would register as button 2 and so on. This was
    easy to fix, but tedious.

    With drawterm, you'll be using x11 or Wayland or Windows or
    whatever. As long you've got those configured correctly, plan9
    won't care.

    Within the community, we might build a few Depraz mouse clones,
    but I wouldn't recommend them: they're kind of not that
    comfortable to use.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to tenser on Thu Feb 10 09:54:22 2022
    If that's what you're into, go for it. I used to be very into
    configuring my environment, having for instance, lengthly X11
    startup scripts and resource files, elaborate shell configuration,
    etc. Now, I mostly don't want to have to care: the interesting
    thing for me is what I get to do _with_ the computer, not what I
    do _to_ the computer.


    I've seen some Linux YouTubers who seem to spend a lot of time on their set up, and have scripts to manage their set up. It is easy to get lost in "administration". The kind of configuration I have, is simple FVWM guis that
    let me select a link, press a key config and download the audio, or one where
    I can download a link using ARIA2, or a simple form where I can initiate a backup, press a button to do common tasks, etc.

    Few other automated time saving things. You do have to weigh up the cost/benefit otherwise you'll spend your time scripting and editing for nothing.

    If by, "we never really did have control at the CPU level" you mean
    that you were constrained by the ISA, then I guess that's true, though FPGAs have been available for a long while now. Most machines you've
    used have probably been microcoded as long as you've used them.
    Indeed it has. So much so that the "operating system" is actually in charge of a pretty constrained slice of the machine. Timothy Roscoe's OSDI'21 keynote nicely illustrated this very nicely.



    I might have to check it out. I'm not a fan of such complexity, it just becomes costlier and costlier and more difficult to maintain a baseline.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Sporathan@21:1/162 to tenser on Fri Feb 11 13:26:56 2022
    Ah, cool. Which location were you at? I know a number of folks who
    went to AT&T labs.

    Technically out of Middletown NJ, but I worked remotely from CT.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Cheshire Underground (21:1/162)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Sporathan on Mon Feb 14 07:32:50 2022
    On 11 Feb 2022 at 01:26p, Sporathan pondered and said...

    Technically out of Middletown NJ, but I worked remotely from CT.

    Hmm, what BU? I wonder if we know anyone in common.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Sporathan@21:1/162 to tenser on Mon Feb 14 13:35:36 2022
    Hmm, what BU? I wonder if we know anyone in common.

    OCATS (formerlly ATS).

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Cheshire Underground (21:1/162)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to boraxman on Mon Feb 14 16:00:32 2022
    Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: boraxman to All on Mon Feb 07 2022 07:31 pm

    Probably a banal question, but I'm curious as to what Operating Systems people prefer to us.

    I'm guessing that most people here are BBS hobbyists of sometime, but I wonder whether this correlates with a preference for an OS which gives you more power/flexibility, or is just practicality of day to day use important.

    I'm not sure if it really correlates to being a BBS hobbyist or not. Much of the time, I think running a BBS requires using the "right tool for the job" philosophy, and the OS of choice to run a BBS on might not necessarily correlate to the OS you like to use for your everyday computer use.

    I've been a long-time Windows user (and DOS before that), so much of the software I currently like to use is for Windows. I've remained using Windows for now, and generally haven't had many problems.

    As far as running a BBS, I use a 32-bit edition of Windows to run my BBS (and an earlier version too) since that seems to be the easiest way to run old 16-bit DOS BBS doors. I know Linux can run 16-bit DOS doors (and I have considered moving my BBS to Linux), but for now I've been running my BBS in a 32-bit Windows.

    I have considered switching to Linux as my daily OS. I just still feel like pretty much all the software I like to use (including the occasional PC game) is available for Windows, so in a way it makes sense to stay in Windows. If I did switch to Linux, I'd then have to reboot into Windows to play an occasional game, or use Windows in a VM to use some software that isn't available for Linux. I feel like it's generally less hassle to just stay in Windows right now.

    I'm kind of thinking that people who like the Windows/Mac OS way of doing things would prefer a more graphical approach, but my assumptions may be wrong.

    Not everything for Windows or even Mac is graphical. Windows has some text-based command-line tools, and Mac OS is based on BSD which has its command-line tools.

    Linux isn't necessarily all text-based either. There are some good GUI environments for Linux and some good GUI tools for Linux.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to Joacim Melin on Mon Feb 14 16:08:08 2022
    Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: Joacim Melin to boraxman on Mon Feb 07 2022 10:01 am

    I use MacOS because I like it when shit works. I don't like Windows, and I

    I see people say Mac just works, but most of the time these days I haven't had any major problems running Windows. I can't remember the last time I was really frustrated with something going seriously wrong in Windows.

    Let's say I install Fedora (my personal distro of choice), and then I want to install Skype. This is not in the software center application until I install some other repo (Flatpack, for example). Why isn't that enabled from the start?

    The thing is that there is a lot of software from independent companies; also, new software can come and go. If a new piece of software appears that wasn't around when a Linux distro was made, then naturally it wouldn't be in the software repository. I think that's always going to happen, and I can't really see a way to ensure that users would always be able to find all software in one central repository.

    Maybe Linux would benifit from a package installer like ones available on MacOS and Windows - download a file and click on it to install it.

    In some ways, that's already possible. Even if a piece of software doesn't appear in your Linux repo (i.e., if you don't have their repo set up), you can often still download the package and install it through your distribution's software manager. Aside from that, if software authors follow the standard procedure, you can often download the source code, and on the command line you can do a 'make' and 'make install' to build and install it (though that doesn't always 'just work'; also, doing it that way, the software manager doesn't keep track of it, so uninstalling it can be a bit messy).

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From boraxman@21:1/101 to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 22:25:34 2022
    I've been a long-time Windows user (and DOS before that), so much of the software I currently like to use is for Windows. I've remained using Windows for now, and generally haven't had many problems.

    I have considered switching to Linux as my daily OS. I just still feel like pretty much all the software I like to use (including the
    occasional PC game) is available for Windows, so in a way it makes sense to stay in Windows. If I did switch to Linux, I'd then have to reboot into Windows to play an occasional game, or use Windows in a VM to use some software that isn't available for Linux. I feel like it's
    generally less hassle to just stay in Windows right now.



    I used to only dual boot for games, but since I've stopped playing some games, and found that almost all of them work with Proton or have Linux ports, Windows barely gets touched now.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)
  • From Nightfox@21:1/137 to boraxman on Tue Feb 15 09:18:00 2022
    Re: Re: Computer operating system of choice?
    By: boraxman to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 10:25 pm

    I used to only dual boot for games, but since I've stopped playing some games, and found that almost all of them work with Proton or have Linux ports, Windows barely gets touched now.

    There are some games I still like to play these days that I have a feeling would still only run best in Windows. One of them is Microsoft Flight Simulator 2020.

    Nightfox
    --- SBBSecho 3.14-Win32
    * Origin: Digital Distortion: digdist.synchro.net (21:1/137)
  • From tenser@21:1/101 to Sporathan on Wed Feb 16 10:07:32 2022
    On 14 Feb 2022 at 01:35p, Sporathan pondered and said...

    OCATS (formerlly ATS).

    Hmm; don't think I know any of those folks, I'm afraid. :-(
    I knew the Unix folks in 1127 decently well, and some of the
    folks in the Inferno BU, but that was before the split.

    --- Mystic BBS v1.12 A47 2021/12/24 (Linux/64)
    * Origin: Agency BBS | Dunedin, New Zealand | agency.bbs.nz (21:1/101)